Homoeroticism + A Master Class in How to White Woman

Two Cents Plus Tax

Episode Five: “Final Crushes”


Transcript has been lightly edited for readability.

(theme song plays)

K: I’m Krystal.

C: I’m Caitlin.

K: And this is …

K & C: Two Cents Plus Tax!

C: Welcome back! It is Two Cents Plus Tax.

K: Hello. We’re here. How are you?

C: I’m tired. How are you?

K: (laughs) I know. Same. I feel like this one’s gonna be … I’m gonna try to bring the energy, but I don’t know. 

C: Yeah.

K: I’m feeling like … I’m feeling very Sunday right now.

C: We also have producer Toshio with us. Hello.

K: Yay!

Toshio: Hello!

C: Thank you for joining us. 

K: We should put in some like … applause sound effects right here.

C: I know. Clap clap clap. It’s been a rough week. (laughs) Uh, a lot of rough stuff has happened.

K: Yeah.

C: So we’re gonna pick just a nice easy breezy topic today. 

K: Yeah. One that everyone can relate to and have their own answers for.

C: Correct. And so today we are gonna be talking about crushes. Crushes!

K: Yes. Aptly named. (laughs) 

C: Aptly named! So do you get a lot of crushes? 

K: I mean, I definitely did when I was like in my teens and twenties, but they were mostly like … harmless. I never really had any that were all-consuming, except for one in high school that was very embarrassing.

C: So this was someone that you knew? This wasn’t like a …

K: Oh, yeah, yeah, for sure. 

C: Okay. 

K: For sure. Like a person who was tangential to my social circle. But everyone was like, why that person? Like a lot of people.

C: Really?

K: Yeah. It was … he was a football player, and we’ll just say, not the brightest bulb (laughs), as we were talking about. And everybody was like, why that guy, Krystal? I was like, I don’t know. I just … I think he’s cute. 

C: He just had—

K: And also he was from the south and had a really good accent, so that was part of it too.

C: There you go. Where was he from? Do you remember?

K: I think he was from … I think Tennessee. So I think it was near-ish Louisiana-ish, like the sort of deep, deep south, kind of? 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: But yeah, I think Tennessee? It’s either Tennessee or Oklahoma, which is not deep south, it’s more southwest—

C: No. Disagree. Disagree.

K: What, you think it’s not Southwest? You think it’s deep south? Oklahoma?

C: I don’t consider Oklahoma Southwest. Oklahoma borders me [in Arkansas]. 

K: I know, but doesn’t it border Texas also? So … (laughs) 

C: Now we’re just getting technical. (laughs) 

K: (laughs) I’m just saying, that’s how I’m thinking of it.

C: My geography is bad. I just don’t consider … I don’t think anyone also in Oklahoma would consider themselves in the Southwest.

K: Yeah, no that’s probably fair. I think probably a small subset of Oklahomans would consider themselves Southwest now.

C: Like, zero percent.

K: Well, the part that touches Texas, probably. 

K & C: (laugh) 

K: The rest, I don’t know what they do. But yeah, he had a really good accent, and it worked on me as a Central California person.

C: Oh yeah. Mm-hmm. I definitely get crushes all the time. So, not people I see so much in real life. One, I don’t see anyone right now—

K: (laughs) I know, who sees anyone ever?

C: —cuz I’m at home, so it’s like, who am I gonna see? So like on the telly, and podcasts, and … I did make a list. I would say that from birth I have had really intense crushes, where it’s all-consuming crushes.

K: Oh, mm-hmm.

C: I think also I just have this very—not to get too deep on our podcast, but I think I have a very romantic side to me. A very passionate side. 

K: Yeah, no, I could see that.

C: Yeah, so I get crushes, and, you know. Then they go away.

K: (laughs) 

C: But I would love to talk about sort of … okay, so I made a list.

K: Mm-hmm. So did I.

C: I do like to get prepared. Oh, yes! I love organization. And I made a list of sort of … I made categories.

K: Okay.

C: And I also made a section where I was talking about uncomfortable crushes—

K: Mmm.

C: —where you have a crush on someone that perhaps it’s a little odd, or even makes you feel a little uncomfortable. For me, the first person that came to mind for me was James Spader.

K: (laughs) 

C: Where he is odd, and yet I do feel like, attracted to him.

K: So are you talking about like 80’s James Spader, like the Brat Pack James Spader?

C: I mean … ahhh, more like later, like older.

K: Okay, that makes more sense.

C: I mean—so I watched some of Blacklist, I think is the show? 

K: Oh, mm-hmm. 

C: It’s not that great, but I did watch some of it last year. I was like, oh my god, I think I’m attracted to you.

K: (laughing) Is that the one where he’s wearing like a fedora all the time?

C: Yes!

K: Okay. (laughs) 

C: Which is so embarrassing, which also reminds me of a friend of the podcast Yassir Lester, who’s a comedian—

K:  Oh, god. (laughs) 

C: He would hate me so much for saying that. We do not know him.

K: Oh my god. No, we don’t. 

C: But I love him.

K: But I would like to—I think he follows me on Twitter, maybe.

C: Does he?!

K: Possibly.

C: Everyone follows you!

K: No, that’s not true.

C: Krystal gets so much—Krystal has a fan club. Which she deserves! I’m not disputing that.

K: (laughing) I don’t! I do not have … that’s not accurate.

C: Oh, it is. [Krystal’s Twitter account] Humblecore gets all the love. 

K: (laughs) 

C: Which I—we love to see it. We love to see it. You deserve it. But he was trying to—and he succeeded in getting white people—

K: (laughing) Oh, yeah, I know what you’re talking about! 

C: —to believe that by wearing fedoras and writing the hashtag #FedorasForFreedom, that they were standing up for Black Lives Matter. Which I thought was the funniest thing. And then he got white people to shave off their eyebrows. (laughs) 

K: Yeah I was gonna say, there’s more to it than that! Yeah, he’s really good at Twitter.

C: He’s amazing.

K: He’s really, really good at social media and has a really good, really interesting persona. Cuz it’s obviously partially like him, but it’s like ratcheted up—

C: Right.

K: —but man, that was a great moment. That was really, really good. But yeah. James Spader? I guess I could see it. I thought you were gonna say the like, you know … what is it? Pretty in Pink-era James Spader?

C: No, not like when he was probably at his peak attractiveness. This is later, where … he’s probably in his sixties now. I’ll say, this happened last year, so it’s really not that long ago. But uh, that was definitely kind of in the “this is strange, but I’m having feelings” [category] and I don’t know if it’s like COVID and quarantine, like—

K: Right.

C: —I haven’t seen other human beings that much—

K: (laughs) Yeah.

C: —so standards are dropping. They’re gettin low!

K: I mean, he’s not … I was gonna say, you could do worse than I think current-day James Spader. He definitely has like a weird magnetism. I don’t know what his energy is, but it’s just—

C: Yes. It’s odd! It’s an odd energy, but it’s also charismatic.

K: Yes, exactly. That’s what it is. But it’s like, uniquely charismatic. Like nobody else has that kind of vibe.

C: No. I think that’s what it is, is like—yeah. He is his own thing, and I do love a unique energy. One, it’s non-threatening.

K: (laughs) Yeah, exactly. You want it to be good.

K & C: Good energy.

K: I have a version of that. You just reminded me when you were like, this is uncomfortable, how I feel this way. (laughs) Do you know the band Afghan Whigs?

C: I do! With Greg Dulli

K: Yes! I was gonna—

C: Do you have a crush on Greg?

K: (laughs) I do!

C: I could totally see that!

K: I mean, it’s the same. Same with James Spader. He has his own kind of magnetism and charisma that is very engaging—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and I definitely get it, like people joking about this on Twitter, cuz I said it once and like, you know, you say a thing and then people don’t let you forget it. I was like, I did say that I would let Greg Dulli destroy me—

C: Ooh!

K: I remember I said that. (laughs)

C: I like it!

K: He’s very, um … I don’t know, the songs obviously are very like, explicitly sexy at times. 

C: Much like you.

K: but he, if you see him, you’re like, “that guy?!” 

K: (laughs) No. That is not accurate. I am implicitly sexy only.

C: Implicitly? Okay.

K: No, yeah, he’s very … I just like him. I think he’s very—what’s the word? I wanna say alluring, but it feels like you can only say that for women. But I’m gonna you know, use it for anyone—

C: You can use it for whoever you want! Alluring, yes.

K: Yeah, he’s very … I don’t know what it is. Every time I see him, I’m like—

C: What a reveal. 

K: (laughs) I mean, the music is good too. I really do like Afghan Whigs, and he has another side project, Twilight Singers, and another one too that I don’t remember the name of. I think The Gutter Twins is what it’s called.

C: Greg Dulli. I also put Matt Berry, the actor—he’s British—Matt Berry.

K: (laughs) Yeah, speaking of Greg Dulli, they kind of have the same body … like, physical type, I think, now.

C: Matt Berry. Okay, so he’s another one where I’m like …  t’s not an uncomfortable crush; it’s just he’s so outlandish, and his voice is so—

K: His voice is perfect!

C: —absurd. So he was in, for those who don’t know, he was in all these British shows. IT Crowd, and … 

K: I just know him—most recently he was in Toast of London.

C: Oh yeah, Toast of London. But what was the one that was like, really popular? Oh god, Mighty Boosh, yeah. Although I’m not a huge Mighty Boosh fan—

K: Yeah. Me neither.

C: —but I do love Darth Marenghi’s … Garth Marenghi’s Darkplace. Right?

K: Yeah. Garth.

C: Yeah. And Matt can sing!

K: Yes, he has a great voice.

C: He has an amazing voice. And … oh, right! What We Do in the Shadows

K: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

C: Thank you, producer Toshio. So What We Do in the Shadows. I love that TV show. Comedy, vampires in Staten Island. 

K: (laughs) 

C: I like the TV show better, I think, than the movie that it’s based on. But yeah, Matt Berry is definitely …

K: That’s a good one. I like that.

C: It’s a bit odd.

K: No, I don’t think it’s odd!

C: No? 

K: I would say that he’s attractive, full stop. No caveats or anything. I think he’s a good-looking man. He has good hair. I like his hair. (laughs)

C: He’s got nice hair, yeah. He is a good-looking man. I guess it’s just the characters he plays are so goofy. So so goofy.

K: For sure. Yes. And they’re hard to divorce from like him as a person.

C: Exactly. I can’t separate the art from the artist.

K: (laughs)

C: Okay, so what about you? Gimme some more.

K: One that I was actually thinking of the other day because of, again, something that happened on Twitter, that—maybe it’s uncomfortable? Or maybe surprising more than anything. But do you remember when Mindy Kaling had the show Mindy Project and everyone was kind of like, (laughing) why is she picking all these white dudes to be her partner on the show?

C: Right.

K: I was like, well if I had a show and my name was in it, I’d pick whoever I wanted to be my boyfriend on the show (laughs). Like that’s the whole deal, right? And she picked, I remember for a time, Anders Holm, was playing her boyfriend on a show? He—I don’t know if you know—he’s like the blonde guy from Workaholics. He played like a cool pastor guy (laughs)

C: Oh my god.

K: —who she was dating, and yeah, they were together for quite awhile. And I had never really cared about Workaholics. I don’t think I’ve seen an episode. But you know, that guy Adam, the main one, was everywhere for a little while, so you’d see the commercials and stuff and I was like, whatever. But then I saw him on that show and I was like, oh I get it. I get whatever his deal is. I get how Mindy Kaling would be like, I can make him attractive in a conventional way.

C: Yes. If you’re funny or clever, I’m all over it.

K: Yeah. Yeah exactly, it does a lot of the heavy lifting, for sure.

C: Absolutely. No, I made … actually, that was one of my notes. Funny crushes.

K: I have another one for that one too.

C: Oh, please. Go ahead!

K: Uh, Charlie Day from It’s Always Sunny in Philadelphia. The like … tiny one?

C: Oh, yeah. Another kind of short king.

K: Yes. He has a really great voice too.

C: Shoutout to short kings again, we love you.

K: Again, we can’t express enough our love for short kings. But no, he has a really great voice too. Like it’s a very comedically silly voice, which works for me. He’s really great. And he’s totally a wife guy also, like his wife is one of the actors on the show. I can’t remember her name, but they’re just always really cute on social media and he’s always hyping her up, and I’m like, good for you, Charlie Day. 

C: I put Jason Mantzoukas down.

K: Oh my god, yes. another silly-voiced comedy person who’s incredibly hot, yes.

C: Another outrageous, wild, uh—his characters are always out of control.

K: (laughs)

C: I love him so much. And lemme just tell you a few reasons why I love Jason Mantzoukas.

K: Okay, go for it.

C: He’s also Sagittarius. 

K: Is he really?

C: Yeah! He is.

K: Nice. Nice.

C: He is a crier. I love that in a man. I love a man who cries. I am also a crier. I cry all the time. When I’m happy, when I’m sad—

K: (laughs) 

C: —so I feel like we would really share that. 

K: Right.

C: He wears a white oxford shirt every day.

K: Okay. (laughs)

C: Every day. He’s not worried about fashion. He just wears the same thing every day and he looks good. He wears the hell out of a white button-up shirt.

K: Handsome man.

C: Um, he is friends with all the … 

K: The comedy people.

C: All the comedy people that I love—the Bitch Sesh girls. He goes on their podcast—

K: Every podcast. 

C: Right. How Did This Get Made podcast, which is really funny. He’s just … I love him!

K: He’s great. He’s a really interesting person, too. He’s one of those comedy people that I’m like … where his characters are so outrageous that you’re just—you know that they’re not like that in real life. Like he definitely seems like very even-keel, very low-key, like when you hear him talk on podcasts that aren’t specifically about comedy, like when you hear him talk about stuff, you’re just like, oh he’s a normal person (laughs).

C: Right.

K: It’s hard to accept that because the characters he plays are always so ratcheted up. Every time I think of him now, I think of him as Derek from The Good Place, and that’s just … what a ridiculous character. It’s just perfect, perfect casting.

C: Yeah. I should have probably mentioned things he has been in, just if you don’t know him.

K: (laughs) I mean, I don’t you don’t need to! I think his name is pretty—

C: He’s everywhere!

K: If you google it you’ll be like, oh yeah, I’ve definitely seen that guy in like ten things. But you may not have known his name.

C: Right.

K: Incredible stuff.

C: (sighs) Friend of the podcast Jason Mantzoukas.

K: I wish, man. He goes on every podcast, so come on this one!

C: I’m just gonna put it out there into the universe that he’s a friend.

K: Well maybe—we don’t live in LA, so that might be like … hurting us.

C: Well, we have gotten … I don’t know if we’re allowed to talk about this yet cuz, you know, it’s early. But we have been approached—

K: (laughs) Have we?

C: —by a few of the stations about transitioning this into a TV broadcast. We’re weighing the offers; we’re gonna see. I don’t know if I can do that right now. I got a lot on my plate.

K: I gotta say, I’m never gonna get tired of this bit. It makes me laugh every time. (laughs) 

C: Shhh. They don’t know it’s a bit.

K: (laughs) No, yeah. Jason Mantzoukas. That’s a great one. I can’t believe I didn’t think of that one. Like that is like right in my wheelhouse of type of guy. Yeah. For sure.

C: Yeah. Let’s see. Who else do you have?

K: So I’m gonna take it back a little bit. So I think we’ve talked a little on the podcast about how I was like … my type. I mean we talked about short kings and then there was also, you know—

K & C: White boys with floppy blond hair! 

K: (laughs) That was—I had that little phase for awhile. But one of the crushes that kinda broke me outta that phase was in the year 2000, a television show premiered that for me was very important. For other people, I think it was important, but maybe in a bad way. The TV show Jackass premiered (laughs) on MTV. Around that time I was becoming closer friends with some of the like skater-y type kids, particularly this one kid who I was in band with. And we, you know, became really good friends that year and would hang out a lot more, and he and his friends were basically all like that. And I was just like, oh this is just a kind of person that’s here, in the valley where I live, and then I saw that show and I was like oh, no, (laughing) this is just a kind of person that exists in the world. Like these skater, like alt-types that love to play pranks on each other and hang out and be really … I don’t know, like absurd and over-the-top, and I was like, okay, this is like a thing. But then also, that show is hosted by Johnny Knoxville, who—

C: Who is a fine drink of water.

K: I mean … and has aged (laughs) … impeccably.

C: He—oh, my gosh. No, I just have to interject because I saw a photo, I think it was on Instagram—

K: With the glasses?

C: And I don’t … probably, and they were like … well, it was something basically like, if you don’t know who this is, you’re too old … and I was looking at it and I was like, this looks so familiar. Who is this person? 

K: Right. Well, cuz he has gray hair now. Like his hair is—

C: He does.

K: Man, it’s a lot. If you were into Johnny Knoxville in 2000 and you’re like, “wonder what he’s lookin like” … you’re gonna be very pleasantly surprised by what you find.

C: He’s handsome. He’s a handsome man.

K: He’s incredibly handsome.

C: That’s a good choice. Oh! And speaking of, he dated Jessica Simpson.  

K: Yes! I was gonna say, he shifted my type of guy. Cuz again, like I said, I was into a very specific type. But then I started to sorta become friends with these guys, and I saw Johnny Knoxville and I was like, ohhhh. Right. There’s a different version of this that I know that’s like, incredibly hot, like okay. (laughs) Cool, cool cool. That’s a kind of guy to be into. But yeah. Man, he was so—and the thing I liked about that show too is that because of the stuff, the stunts, they would do, that there was always some excuse for him to take his shirt off on the show. (laughs)

C: Mmm.

K: So I was like, yes. I mean, yes obviously it was very silly, but I was like, no, I’m watching for the silliness, everyone. Definitely not watching cuz I think he’s really nice to look at. It’s the silliness I’m into! (laughing) Which is like so not true.

Yes. Toshio has put a comment in the chat saying that was very homoerotic, and I agree. 

C: (laughs)

K: That’s one thing I really sort of was bummed about, when people would kinda trash the show, I’m like … but it’s about guys being friends, like this is how they express their friendship. But it was about them just like loving each other and hanging out, and it looked weird to maybe other people, but I was like, no this is very … it’s sweet, in its way, that show.

C: Wait. So you did not find it homoerotic, or you did?

K: I did. 

C: Oh.

K: But that’s what I liked about it!

C: Yes.

K: That they were very you know, comfortable in being like, with their bodies, and their bodies with each other, and it was like … there was no shame about it. I think if you went back and looked at that show you’d be like, this is kind of radical for the time.

C: I mean, I’m all for homoeroticism. Thumbs up! Speaking of … so Toshio, do you have any crushes that you would like to weigh in on? I’m putting you on the spot. You don’t have to.

T: I have been recently … you know, leaving behind self-loathing and turning the Orientalism towards myself outward onto others. (laughs)

C: Is that a good thing? I don’t know.

T: I don’t know. Probably not. Probably not.

K: I like it.

T: But I mean, you’ve already discussed, like Steven Yeun is—

K: Of course. We’ve gotta mention him as many times as possible.

T: Yeah.

C: Are you saying you’re now looking to other Asian men?

T: I’m objectifying—

C: Objectifying. Yes.

(K, C, & T laugh)

C: Yes! Okay.

T: I mean, Bowen Yang is just so funny and smart.

C: Ugh. I love him. My dream is for you to hook up with Bowen Yang.

K: Oh my god, Caitlin. (laughs) 

C: But I’m talking like love affair—

T: Yeah!

C: … or, maybe I shouldn’t be saying this, cuz—

T: No no no, I mean, I’m in an open relationship, so.

K: Oh, okay.

C: And I know that! I know that.

K: Well I didn’t know that! (laughs) 

C: Oh! (laughs) 

K: So I’m like … Caitlin!

C: Well, mind you—I know, I don’t want you to break up with anyone. I’m just saying that—

T: We can cut. If it came down to that. Still open.

C: Yeah, you could have a lil side with Bowen. I vicariously live through you; I get to meet him.

K: (laughs) 

T: I’m already one degree away, cuz my boss was in a random Zoom Pride-related event last summer, cuz Pride went online. Course it wasn’t already sad enough, you know. People, like—

(K & C laugh) 

K: So many things were online and sad last year. It’s not—yeah.

T: Yeah, yeah yeah.

K: That’s really good. I like that answer.

C: I do too. That was a good answer!

K: Yeah, Bowen Yang. I mean, again, any comedy person really can be a crush at any time. Like if you make me laugh enough? I’m like, yes. I’m into it. I know you have more on your list, on your many lists, Caitlin. (laughs) 

C: I do. So I also put in June Diane Raphael

K: Oh yes, of course.

C: —is just a goddess.

K: She’s so beautiful. It’s like, upsetting. (laughs)

C: She’s so beautiful. So funny. She’s just the total package, June Diane Raphael, who said hi to me at the Bitch Sesh show. My close personal friend, June Diane Raphael.

K: (laughs) Gotta keep mentioning that. Important. It’s important to let people know.

C: Yeah. And I love her on Grace and Frankie; I love her on the How Did This Get Made podcast; she’s just good.

Here’s another long-standing crush that I have: Gillian Anderson

K: Okay, yeah.

C: And I have a longstanding crush on Gillian Anderson—British Gillian more so than American Gillian. I prefer Gillian with a British accent.

K: But not Margaret Thatcher though, right?

C: No. I’m not attracted to her as Margaret Thatcher. I’m not attracted to anyone as Margaret Thatcher. 

K: (laughs) Or Margaret Thatcher either. So yeah.

C: Aside from being obviously very beautiful, I think she’s a great actress. I also think she’s very smart, and I enjoy her in so many things. I love The Fall. The TV show The Fall was really fantastic. That was probably one of my favorite things she’s been in. Like I mean I watch The Crown, even though I’m not into the monarchy, or really the royal family.

K: (laughs) I mean, who is?

C: But I did enjoy her in that.

K: Mm-hmm. She’s … it’s weird, cuz I feel like The Fall was the first time I had seen her in many years, like I felt like she went away, and I don’t know if that was just because she was doing a lot of things that were on British TV that I wasn’t seeing, and that was kinda the first thing that like kinda crossed over and became popular here as well. But I was like, oh yeah, she’s really good at acting, and also very nice to look at.

C: Yes.

K: But yeah, I’m glad she’s been having a resurgence in the last, whatever, decade or so, because you know we all know what happens to actresses as they get older, like they get less parts. (laughs) And less good parts. And I think she’s been doing really … she’s been fortunate to have really interesting things to do, Margaret Thatcher aside. 

C: Right.

K: I think she’s … that’s a good one. My next one—this is also one that’s kind of like formative-ish type crush, but going back to MTV and its stars, the people, sort of its personalities—

C: Ed Lover. (laughs) 

K: (laughs) I mean, I did watch MTV Raps a lot as a kid. I don’t know that I had a crush on him. I always felt like they were way older than I was—

C: Yeah.

K: —but when I think about it I’m like, they were probably … I don’t know, eight years older than me? But they were like, real adults and I was like, wow, I’m just a kid. No, the other person I was thinking of—it’s kinda similar actually, to Ed Lover, cuz he wasn’t on a show really. He was like a personality. So in the 2000’s, MTV sorta started really ramping up its news, MTV news sort of programming, and—

C: If you say Kurt Loder, I’m gonna freak out.

K: (laughs) No! No, the funny thing about Kurt Loder is that I found out he’s like two years older than my grandma, which I was like—it’s wild. No, two months older than my grandma.

K: Yeah.

C: But still, I’m just like, how is he … my grandma is a grandma! Like how is Kurt Loder on MTV in the 90s? It was wild. So they were ramping up the MTV News programming, so they got all these new correspondents, so they had like Suchin Pak and Serena Altschul, and all these young people, and one of the ones that they got—I don’t remember if he came on in 2000 or 2001, maybe even 2002? I can’t remember. But one young college student at the time who got the MTV News gig was Gideon Yago. Do you guys remember that guy?

C: No!

K: Oh, man. I was so in the tank for Gideon Yago. He was like this kinda intellectual, like … I think he went to Columbia or something. He had nerd glasses—

C: Ooh, yeah

K: —and like a gruff … and kinda like a half-smile, and I was just like, I don’t even … like I can’t … what is he talking about? I don’t know! I wanna see it though, like it didn’t even matter. (laughs) And I remember he did a lot of reporting around post-election, how everything got really bad in 2000, if you guys recall—

C: I don’t.

K: (laughing) I mean, I’m sure. Nobody remembers anything bad about an election, but he was doing a lot of work for them, and he did a lot of reporting on 9/11 and the 2004 election. And then I remember many years later he went into TV writing, and I think he worked on a show everybody hated, The Newsroom. But yeah, he wrote on that show and did a lot of entertainment-y type writing since, and … man, I was just like so attracted to that type. But then that let me know that that was a type of guy I could be into, like the bookish, you know, kind of hipster—

C: Glasses.

K: —yeah, type. And I was like, oh this is interesting. And now, being somebody who’s been into indie rock and emo and DIY music for twenty years, it’s like, oh yeah, now I get it. I get why partially this is attractive to me is that the men in it are attractive to me. Which is not the whole reason, like don’t @ me and be like, you only like emo cuz of boys, like no. I don’t. 

C: (laughs) 

K: Yeah. (laughs) Gideon Yago. Man. I am at the point where like, I remember when I first found him on Twitter, or saw that he was on Twitter, I was like, should I allow myself to follow Gideon Yago? And I was like, no, I won’t be able to act responsibly, (laughs) so I’m not gonna do it! I’m not gonna follow him on any social media, cuz I’d be too weird.

C: Too thirsty.

K: Yeah, exactly. I’m like, I need to thirst in private, so you know. I don’t want him to know that it’s happening, so … I mean, unless he name-searches, in which case I’m already found out. So yeah, Gideon Yago. He was really … man, he was so cute. (laughs) 

C: Formative! That’s a formative crush.

K: And he’s aged really well, too. Like if you google him now, he’s just really good-looking. Again, still with the scruff. He has a little more salt in his pepper hair. 

C: Mmm. I love salt-and-pepper.

K: Oh man, it looks so good.

C: It looks so good.

K: Which is one of the reasons Johnny Knoxville looks incredible, cuz his hair is very … it’s more like gray though. It’s less streaky than just like kinda silver now, which is … I’m into it as well.

C: Silver fox.

K: Yes, yeah. A different kind of salt-and-pepper. But yeah, I mean, that’s my other formative one, that I’m like, this kinda shaped the kinda guy that I’m into now, rather than like the kinda guy that I was into when I was twelve or whatever.

C: I like that. I just remembered another kind of uncomfortable crush that I have—

K: (laughs) Oh, no.

C: —cuz I was thinking that we talked about finding certain kinds of men attractive, like people who are really funny and clever and witty. Obviously that goes so far in creating a crush.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: I have a crush on two people—actually three people now that I’m thinking about it—from Succession. I’m a big fan of the show. One of them is Cousin Greg. Have you seen the show? On HBO?

K: Um, I was gonna wait, but no. I haven’t watched it, cuz I kind of had a weird block against it for some reason. I don’t know why.

C: I get it. I get having a block, cuz I did too before I started watching it.

K: Everyone was talking about it and I’m like, leave me alone with your Succession! But also, (laughs) this is not a good reason to not watch something, but I just didn’t like the names of the characters. I thought they had weird names.

C: Yeah.

K: Cuz there’s that one … the old guy, the dad. His name is Logan, and I’m like no. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Nuh-uh. Like, you’re like seventy-five years old. Your name is not Logan. 

C: (laughs) 

K: (laughs) And then the son—the main one, the sad one—his name is Kendall, and I’m just like no. Your name is also not Kendall. I’m sorry, it’s just not. I don’t know why, but—

C: Okay, well I have a crush on Kendall too. (laughs) 

K: Oh, no I’m not saying they’re not attractive, don’t get me wrong. Kendall is very cute. I think he’s cute in a sad-boy way.

C: He is. He’s a sad boy. But lemme tell you why I have a crush on him. Everyone is so good on that show. Like everyone is so good, and the guy who plays Kendall, the sad boy … I think what I’m attracted to is like—I’m not attracted to the character. At all. I’m attracted to the actor playing him. 

K: Right.

C: However, at the same time, I feel like I would hate him in real life based on interviews that I’ve read with him, where he was like … and I only know this cuz Casey Wilson, who I’ve talked about in earlier episodes—from Bitch Sesh, and you know, acting, comedy—

K: Happy Endings.

C: Happy Endings. She posted something on her Instagram that was from an interview, so this is getting a little meta and convoluted, but Kendall, the actor playing Kendall—of course I don’t remember his name. Doesn’t matter.

K: Jeremy Strong, I think.

C: Thank you. Jeremy Strong. So Jeremy Strong did some interview where he was talking about having to get into the character of Kendall, which is a very sad—very sad character.

K: (laughs) 

C: So he’s like, “I had to be in minor key for so long.” So Casey Wilson posted that quote and was like, “Sometimes I really hate actors.” (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Yeah, he definitely seems—cuz he was big in the last awards season, you know, the show was getting a lot of accolades, and he won the Emmy, I think? And I think he also won a Golden Globe last year or something, so he’s been in the spotlight for a long time and he definitely gives like pretentious actor vibes—

C: Oh, absolutely. Yes. 

K: —like one hundred percent. So I get it.

C: Yeah. And he’s married to a psychiatrist, I believe.

K: Oh, good for him.

C: Yeah, I feel like he’s … I think, or actually, what I know, why I’m attracted to him—is the intensity. I love the intensity. 

K: Mm. Yes.

C: Do I wanna be around that? Probably not. But do I find it attractive? Yeah. I do.

K: No, I get it. I feel the same way about Ed Norton

C: Oh, god. Super intense.

K: He gives me the same like … he was in a podcast I love. Shoutout to Sam Fragoso and the podcast Talk Easy. He had Ed Norton on once, and I was very excited to listen to it cuz I’m like, I love Sam, who I’m kinda friendly with, but I also really like Ed Norton, so I’m interested to hear it. And then I was like (grimaces) I don’t know, I might have to dip outta this, (laughs) because it was a lot for me. As like a person who genuinely really loves Ed Norton and thinks he’s an incredible actor, I was just like, I can’t do this for that long. Cuz he has the same kind of like … it’s a lot. He’s very like Method, and like, I gotta really get—

C: Ugh.

K: —and I’m just like, okay guy. Like … alright. It makes your art very good, but I can’t do it. (laughs) Like I can’t go there on that journey with you, Ed Norton. 

C: No.

K: But yeah, I get it.

C: Yeah. I’m so glad you brought up Method acting, because I want to bring up a story that I found so outrageous. 

K: (laughs) Oh god.

C: I would love to get feedback on this.

K: I wonder if I’ve heard it. I’m interested.

C: You probably have. Cuz I only found out about it like within the past year, but I think it was very popular in the news cycles a few years ago. So like I said, staying on-brand. Always finding out things later—

K: (laughs) Finding out things … yeah.

C: Later. Yeah. So when you think Method actors, who do you think of? Who’s like some of the first people that come to your mind?

K: Uh, Marlon Brando is the one that I think of initially.

C: Okay. Well that’s a really good choice, but not what I had in mind.

K: (laughs) Okay. I’m trying to think of another one. De Niro, maybe? Pacino? I don’t know.

C: Okay, lemme just tell you, cuz there’s a lot of them. 

K: (laughing) Okay good, cuz I’m like … 

C: Daniel Day-Lewis

K: Oh, of course. Yeah, okay. Of course.

C: Yes. Okay.

K: Oh, I know exactly what story. (laughs) 

C: You know which story. Okay, so lemme just say this. I read this and I got fucking enraged. 

K: (laughs) 

C: So he, as you know, played Lincoln. Sally Field—friend of the podcast Sally Field—played his wife. So, you know, Daniel Day-Lewis, huge Method actor, obviously. Go on google, there’s a thousand stories about Daniel Day-Lewis being just obnoxious and fractious and irascible.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: This is what I don’t get. He was Method the entire set. People had to call him Mr. President, which like, fuck you. 

K: (laughs) 

C: Fuck you so hard, making people call you Mr. President on a movie set.

K: I hate it. I hate it.

C: Are you fucking kidding me? He would text Sally Field as Abraham Lincoln.

K: (laughs) He’s texting her?!

C: He’s texting her. So okay, lemme say this: if you are so Method, how are you gonna know what a cell phone is? 

K: Yeah! Like, leave the phones—

C: How are you gonna know how to text? To me … I got so angry. 

K: I don’t like it. I don’t the whole—I mean, I think it’s like … we’re at the time in art, and us sort of having access to celebrities and stuff, to be more aware of that, and it just seems exhausting. I don’t know how people put up with it for so long. I mean there’s all those stories about Jared Leto and his whole deal when he was playing The Joker—

C: Oh, right.

K: —and I’m just like, why is this allowed? (laughs) Like why would you hire someone to do a job and they act like this? Like I’m sorry, but if it was any other industry and you acted that way, you would not be working.

C: Right. You’d be fired.

K: Like you would just not be. So I don’t understand why everybody’s like, oh no, that’s how they get into character and it’s important, and it’s like, okay, well it’s also important to treat your co-workers with respect, you know what I mean?

C: Indignity. 

K: Ugh. What an obnoxious person. This is one of those reasons why, when people are like, oh my gosh, Daniel Day-Lewis, I’m just like … he’s fine. Like he’s fine, his work is good … I mean, granted, I’m a little bit kind of like, eh, cuz of the My Left Foot stuff, I’m just like—

C: Right. Disabled people have a whole other … 

K: Yeah, I’m just like, I don’t feel the way you guys do about him. Yeah, that also doesn’t make me feel warm towards him, the whole like—

C: Yeah. Oh god! On the whole My Left Foot, which like, talk to a disabled person about My Left Foot and maybe you won’t love Daniel Day-Lewis so much. 

K: No.

C: He would also … this is another thing where I’m like, who the fuck do you think you are? He would make people carry—so he plays a disabled person, Christy Brown.

K: Christy Brown. Mm-hmm. Who’s like an artist, and he was disabled, and he used to paint his art with his foot.

C: Right! Well-known; well-respected. He’s playing Christy Brown, and Daniel Day-Lewis would make people carry him up stairs, as if he could not walk. I’m like, you’re not really disabled!

K: I know, that’s so infuriating. (laughs) Cuz as a disabled person, you know how hard it is to get access—

C: Yeah!

K: —and to be, you know, get into spaces, and you don’t even need that kind of access, and yet you’re forcing people to give it to you? That’s not gonna make them feel positive towards you as an actor, but also towards disabled people. They’re gonna be like, ugh, this is too much work! Like, I’m out. You know? 

C: Ugh. Yeah.

K: It’s just like, don’t do that! It’s bad. Ugh. But Jeremy Strong, that’s definitely a good one.

C: Oh right, Jeremy Strong!

K: He looked really good at The Emmys, I have to say. 

C: Yeah!

K: He can wear a suit. I get it.

C: He can wear a suit. Also when he grows out his beard a little, he looks nice. 

K: Scruff. It looks good on him.

C: Yeah. It does, it looks good. I like Cousin Greg just cuz he’s goofy.

K: Yeah. (laughs) He’s also a giant. He’s very tall.

C: He’s tall. He’s a tall king. And he also weirdly shares my birthday. 

K: When’s your birthday? 

C: My birthday is actually coming up. You have about six weeks left—

K: In May? 

C: —to purchase me a gift. That goes out to all our listeners.

K: (laughs) Caitlin, don’t.

C: I am available for gifts. My birthday is May first. May Day.

K: That’s so funny. May. That’s a really nice birthday. 

C: It is. I love my birthday.

K: I love when people have good birthdays. I’m just like, why not me? (laughs) My birthday’s not the worst, but it’s also not the best, either.

So now it’s time for Two Cents, No Tax, which is our sort of … I don’t wanna say rapid-fire, cuz (laughs) that makes it sound like it’s gonna go quicker than it is, but our sort of short topic, Q&A sort of hot take section of the podcast, where I’m gonna throw out some topics. They’re pop culture-y things, but some of them are just general things, like foods, or events, or what have you, and I just wanna get your quick, you know, top-of-mind take on these. So, are you ready, Caitlin?

C: I’m ready, thank you.

K: Okay, the first one is diet soda.

C: Oh! I hate it. 

K: (laughs) 

C: I do not like it. I think it tastes really weird. I used to be … growing up in the south, I drank so many cokes a day. I was raised on Cokes. I probably drank two or three a day.

K: Correct.

C: I don’t drink soda anymore, except for club soda. I drink club soda like it’s going out of style. I’m drinking club soda right now.

K: (laughs) I mean, it is. Nobody drinks club soda, so …

C: Yeah. So diet soda, I mean I’m fine with other people drinking it, I’m not gonna judge you if you’re drinkin a diet soda.

K: I’m gonna judge them.

C: Okay. You’re gonna—who? Why? 

K: I think it’s bad. I agree with you; I think it’s really … it tastes gross.

C: Yeah. It tastes really artificial. 

K: Yeah! I’m like, how can people convince themselves it’s better than regular soda? I’m like, just have regular soda. This, whatever you’re having, is an abomination. It’s disgusting. Um, I’m glad we’re on the same page.

C: Harsh words. Yeah, harsh words, but I’m not disagreeing with you.

K: Thank you. Okay. This next one, I wanna get your opinion, but also I kind of want you to explain it to me.

C: (laughs) Okay.

K: Uh … Bitcoin?

C: Oh! (laughs) You want … wait, you want me to explain Bitcoin to you? 

K: (laughs) I just think someone knows, and I don’t, so I’m hoping.

C: I just found out about Daniel Day-Lewis; I don’t know if I can tell you about Bitcoin.

K: Okay.

C: I mean, I know it exists. It’s like, somehow … do people use it? I mean I don’t know.

K: I think you can.

C: I don’t know anything about Bitcoin! (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Okay. I know it’s like a currency, but I don’t understand how that works. 

C: Right.

K: I don’t understand how you get it. 

C: No, I don’t.

K: Nothing about it makes sense to me, like … I remember one of my former reports at my last job, he and I got to talking about it, and he was like, yeah, cuz I’m mining Bitcoin, and I’m like, (laughing) you’re doing what with what?! And he was like, oh yeah, Bitcoin, and he tried to go into an explanation and I was just like … my eyes completely glazed over. I was like, I do not … I did not understand a word of what you just said.

C: Yeah.

K: So we’ll circle back to that in the future, but I never looked into it.

C:. Yeah. I don’t know. The only currency I use is love.

K: (laughs) Okay. Alright. Well, moving on, since neither of us know what Bitcoin is. Okay. My  next topic: spring break.

C: You know what? I don’t get a spring break, so I’m a little bitter about it. If you have a spring break, good for you. I hope you’ll be safe. I know most people aren’t going to be.

K: Right.

C: Oh, god. Now I really wanna go on spring break.

K: (laughs) I’m sorry I brought it up!

C: What a lovely thing, to just be like, it’s spring, let’s take a break, let’s do something nice. Why don’t we get that?

K: Yeah. The thing is … yeah, I was gonna say, they understand that like kids need that, but like adults too. It’s not like we’re doing nothing in the spring and just can frolic when we want. It’s like, we deserve a week to just do whatever. 

C: Yeah. Where’s my spring break, Joe?

K: Yeah. (laughs) For real. Ugh. We need to get on the same wave as the European countries where they have all this holiday time.

C: Yeah.

K: That’s never gonna happen. This next one, I’m sure you definitely have an opinion on it, cuz everyone does: The Kardashians

C: Good one. So I guess I’ll go ahead and make my official announcement on the podcast.

K: Oh, no.

C: I made it off-mic.

K: Okay.

C: But I’ll go ahead and go through with it. It is early, but in a few months, I am gonna get hair extensions.

K: (laughs) Alright.

C: And I’m gonna get long hair extensions. Twenty-two inches, I’ve decided. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: It is a big decision. I’ve never had hair extensions before.

K: (laughs) 

C: And I feel like hair extensions now … I mean they’re everywhere. People used them forever but for me it’s huge. Anyway, that just made me think of the Kardashians. I associate them with hair extensions

K: Is that why you’re getting them?

C: Oh, for sure. Yeah, I just have to be … I’m changing Caitlin to Kaitlin with a K.

K: (laughs) Kaitlin with a K. Right.

C: I mean, I don’t … I think I’ve seen their show once. Maybe twice? 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: Honestly, I don’t quite get it. Maybe I’m too old to understand the empire. I don’t find them that interesting, I have to say.

K: I don’t think they are. I think that’s the thing about them, is that they’re not, that they’re just kind of like, blanks.

C: Yeah. And Kim Kardashian’s house is so tasteless. It’s like …

K: So the thing about houses like that, like you see this with rich people all the time, especially now with social media and everything, is that like … ooh, we’re getting some news—

C: Ooh, a note from the producer.

K: They don’t use their houses on the show. Do they use like rent—

C: Oh, they rent out houses!

K: They rent out houses. But still, this goes to my point though, because those houses are still rich people houses, right? So the thing that I don’t get about those houses is that like … I don’t know, when you think of home and your home, especially when you’re like a kid or growing up, I think of a coziness, you know? Like laying down on the carpet, watchin TV, whatever. How do you do that in a house that’s like basically all marble, and—

C: White!

K: —and white, and I’m like, how do you ever feel … how do kids exist in those spaces? I never understand it—

C: No.

K: I’m just like, they must have spaces that are specifically for kids, that have carpets and stuff and they do whatever, but I’m just like every time you see a rich person’s house, I’m like, you have children that are under five, like (laughs) how do they feel about being in that—it reminds me of Ferris Bueller[‘s Day Off] and you know, that scene where Ferris is talking to the camera about Cameron and how his upbringing was, and he’s like, “His house is very beautiful and very cold and you’re not allowed to touch anything”—

C: Right.

K: —and I’m just like, that’s exactly how all these kids are growing up! And Ferris is like, can you imagine how it would have been like to be in that joint as a baby? And I’m like yeah, how do these kids … ? I don’t know, I just always think their houses look horrible for actual living, you know what I mean?

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: They look good for display, but if you wanna just chill on the couch or something, it just doesn’t look like it’s made for that, which I always am like, what’s the point, then? What’s the point? Just have a house that’s comfortable. But yeah, so I think we’re on the same page about the Kardashians. I don’t think about them that much. I think there’s this push to … (sighs) I don’t know, it’s part of the whole choice feminism thing, where if a woman chooses to do it, then it’s automatically feminist, and so there’s this idea that we gotta support the Kardashians and their empire, and I’m just like … okay, I mean fine, but I don’t have to care about it, you know? I don’t have to actively support them. If they wanna do whatever they’re doing with their show and their products, which I don’t even know what even those are— 

C: Me neither.

K: Like, great but it’s no great advance for women.

C: No. Or just human beings in general. I saw something today where it was Kylie or Kendall—are they twins?

K: No—

C: Oh.

K: —I think Kendall is older, I believe. I think Kylie’s the oldest one, I believe.

C: Well, one of them had a friend who was in a car accident—who’s the billionaire? Is that Kylie?

K: It’s Kylie. Yeah.

C: So Kylie’s a billionaire, and her friend got into a car—

K: Well, she’s not really, but—

C: Right. She’s not really, but she’s got a lot of money, let’s just say. 

K: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.

C: So her friend got into a car accident I guess, and started a Gofundme—

K: (laughing) Oh yeah. I did see that!

C: —and Kylie donated five thousand dollars. (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Yeah, he needs like sixty thousand dollars or something, and she was like, here’s a Gofundme. I’m a billionaire!

C: Right. Here’s a Gofundme and a diet soda.

K: Like, what??? Oh my god. Eat the rich.

C: Yes.

K: Okay, my last one.

C: Ooh, okay.

K: TikTok.

C: Ooh, okay. Another thing that I don’t know anything about. I know what it is—

K: (laughing) Are we too old for all these things? 

C: Maybe I am.

K: I am!

C: Because I am a year older than you. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: I don’t know. I’ve never looked at it. I mean I see TikTok videos on other platforms.

K: Right.

C: It seems fun. Maybe I should get into TikTok. I don’t know. Should I?

K: I don’t know! I’m not on it.

C: Oh.

K: I half-expected you to be like, yeah I have TikTok, and I’m like, of course Caitlin does. 

C: Oh, no.

K: Cuz I feel like I don’t know, surprised … every time I find out someone has TikTok, like someone our age, I’m always surprised by it. I’m like, what? Are people on TikTok now? is that another thing I need to join and learn how to use? Cuz I’m getting at that age where I’m like, it’s too many apps for me, like there’s too many. Snapchat was the one where I was like, alright. This is I think where I tap out. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: I’m done learning about new technology—

C: Technology, yeah.

K: —which is bad. I should definitely not be that way, but you know, there’s so many that come and go. It’s just like, you can’t devote energy to everything.

C: From what I understand, there are really cool things on TikTok, and I loved it when the teenagers bought out all of Trump’s  tickets.

K: (laughs) Oh yeah.

C: —and that was somehow orchestrated over TikTok, so then he went to the empty arena.

K: Yeah. Smart.

C: Kids. They are the future. So if we’re doing things like that on TikTok, yeah. I do follow … I am such an old person. I follow lots of dogs on Instagram—

K: (laughs) 

C: —and a lotta times they’ll use TikTok videos on Instagram. Okay, so if you’re on TikTok, I do have a recommendation. There’s an adorable little chihuahua named Morty, and it’s Morty the Misfit, and he has these TikTok videos every day, and he walks with this cute little bounce all the time, and then they put music to Morty the Misfit, and every time, I’m like, this is hilarious. I could watch this all day. 

K: (laughs) 

C: So now I’m really starting to think that I do need to download TikTok.

K: I know. I feel like it’s gonna reach a tipping point where like as soon as I get on it, it’s not gonna be cool anymore, and then I’m just gonna be like, well, I’ve wasted my time. But yeah, I feel like there’s a lot of … like it’s not as toxic an environment as some other social media apps, which I’m like, maybe I should just dip in. But one thing I find fun is that there are some people who are on TikTok and on other social media platforms, and they use those other social media platforms to post cool TikToks that they’ve seen, and I’m like, okay, well they’re doing the work. I don’t have to actually join it because they’re just showing me all the cool videos. I’m sure there are like obviously millions more, but I’m just like no, this is fine. I would rather have someone curate for me than have to go on, join, and find other stuff. I don’t have the time. Yeah, that’s my Two Cents, No Tax for the week. 

C: Well thank you. I enjoyed that.

K: I’m glad.

C: As did our listeners, I know.

K: (laughs) I’m sure.

C: (laughs) Fan favorite. 

K: (laughing) They just always are clamoring for it.

C: Mm-hmm. Well, this is a good time to remind our listeners and our fans that they can follow us on all the social media places that we’re on. We are not on TikTok, but we are on Twitter and Instagram at Two Cents Plus Tax. anything else? 

K: Email. 

C: Oh! Email. twocentsplustaxpodcast@gmail.com

So Krystal, what are you reading, watching, listening to this week?

K: Um, so watching … really the only thing I’m talking about is the thing I was watching, because it made me so infuriated. So Real World Homecoming New York. This is a show that is on Paramount Plus, which is a streaming service. I think it used to be CBS All Access, and now it’s Paramount Plus. I don’t actually have it, so do not ask me how I’m watching these episodes.

C: Okay. I won’t!

K: (laughs) But yeah, so basically it is a reunion of the very first cast of Real World from New York, so they got all seven people—Eric, Heather, Julie, Norm, Becky, Andre, and Kevin—and they’re all back in New York. I think it is only for like a week, where they—you know, it’s not two months or three months or whatever the original show was. And it’s basically just them coming back to reckon with the legacy of the show that they did, because for all intents and purposes, Real World, that very first season, was like the birth of modern reality TV.

C: Yeah.

K: Obviously, they didn’t know what it was gonna become when they did the show, and so it’s kind of interesting to see them almost thirty years later, cuz the show aired in 1992. Which was like … A) it was a long time ago, but B) there was a lot of stuff happening in the country at that time, when the show was airing, and so it’s interesting to sort of see thirty years later, like … not that much is different in the country. So it’s been really interesting watching that. The first two episodes were pretty … they were pretty introductory, you know? It’s the people coming back together again after not having lived together for thirty years, and everyone’s like, oh, what are you up to? What are you up to? You know, you go through that kind of thing. But yeah, the first two episodes were again like very getting to know you again, kind of like comparing the experience of being in the house now vs. being in the house—cuz it’s the same exact condo that they lived in—

C: Oh! (laughs) 

K: —it’s the same building, like it’s the same place, so it’s really, truly the exact same environment that they were in thirty years ago, and … I mean, if you’re a Real World person, which I absolutely was when I was a teenager, you will like the show. If you do not care about Real World, it’s probably not something you’re going to be interested in. But the first two episodes, like I said, very sort of standard intro episodes of a reality show season, but this third episode that aired this Thursday was … (laughs) so infuriating. One of the things about the first season is that there were a lot of very young wihte people on the show coming into contact with Black people for the first time in a real close kind of way, and there were a lot of debates, a lot of arguments about race and racism and, you know, is this a white supremacist country, and you know, how do people of color exist in this country in a way that’s differently from white people, and what are the opportunities that they have? And you know, basically at the time in 1992, all the white housemates were like, no it’s pretty good now, like it’s not as bad. Like racism is there, but you know, you have the opportunity to be whatever you want or do whatever you want. Mind you, they’re saying this in the midst of the Rodney King trial— 

C: Right.

K: —and LA riots and stuff so it’s like, they just could not see the reality of the situation at the time. And, you know, thirty years later a lot of them have sort of … you know, they repeatedly say in their talking head interviews that like, we were totally unaware of the reality of America and how unequal it is, and everything Kevin was saying in 1992 was totally right. Like everything he said was right, and I wish I was mature enough at the time to have heard him out rather than saying, you know, forcing my experience on him as the universal experience. Except for one castmate. (laughs) 

C: Uh-oh.

K: One castmate was … she did not learn anything in thirty years, and the whole first half of the episode was basically this debate about race and … I mean, if you want like a masterclass—

C: Who’s the castmate?

K: Oh, Becky. Of course, right? Like it had to be Becky.

C: Who woulda thought, with a name like that?

K: Who would have thought, right? (laughs) If you want a masterclass in how to white woman, like … (laughing) she could teach you everything you need to know in that episode.

C: Ugh.

K: Like she goes from like … “well, my experience … I was raised … you know, I didn’t have that much privilege,” to talking about how her family has all this land in the south of France, and when things got really bad in 2016, they just went to the south of France cuz they didn’t wanna deal with it or whatever … into talking about how she was part of this (laughing) Brazilian dance group where it was all people of color, and how she went in there and they accepted her, and she didn’t feel like a white person, and no one really saw race or color—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Oh my god. To talking about how she felt attacked in the conversation, to crying to the producer.

C: Of course.

K: It was just … everything about it was like, the whole time I’m watching it, I’m just cringing so hard. (laughs) And one of the white castmates, Norman, who was probably her closest friend in the first iteration, and is still a really good friend of hers, literally had to tell her, “Shut up.” Like, “You don’t know how you’re gonna come off on this episode, and it is not good, and I’m telling you right now. Stop talking, listen to Kevin, stop trying to center your personal experience, and listen to this conversation about …” (sighs) I think this is one of the problems when white people and people of color try to talk about race, is that white people hear it as like, I’m talking about how racism makes me personally feel, or how one act of racism or one word or particular action of a person makes me feel. When like, when you talk about racism, you’re talking about a system, right? 

C: Right.

K: A system that affects every facet of your life. And so white people can’t often look at it that way, so they think you’re talking about your personal feelings, and so they wanna respond and say like, well I feel, or I have felt, or I believe, and it’s like, that’s not … (laughs) we’re not talking about any of that, right? We’re talking about the material effects of a system on people’s lives. And she just could not get that (laughing), and everyone was so embarrassed for her. 

C: Ohh.

K: It was … ugh. It was one of the most intense … I mean, I don’t watch much reality TV, so maybe they’re all like this all the time. (laughs) But I was like, oh, I get you, reality TV people. I get why you’re into this, cuz this was a train wreck and I could not stop watching it. I was like, Rebecca! Please just … 

C: Oof. Yeah, I’m cringing while you’re talking about it.

K: Oh my god, it was so intense. I could not believe that she just kept going. (laughs) I mean, I kinda was like, this is good, that she just kept going—

C: (laughs) 

K: But I was like, it’s really bad too! Like, don’t, don’t! Man, it was really good. I’m really looking forward to the next episode. This is the third one and I think there’s only six or something, so it’s like halfway over, and I’m really interested to see how it’s gonna go the rest of the episodes, cuz there’s not that many left. But yeah, Real World Homecoming … I think it’s called Real World Homecoming: New York. It has like a too-long name, but—

C: Too many words?

K: —yeah. It’s really good if you’re a Real World person and you’re like, what are they up to? Well, this. This is what they’re up to.

C: Being racist, if you’re Becky.

K: Being super like … a Becky. Or a Karen, even. But yeah. Man. It was good watching. Bad watching, but good watching. (laughs) 

C: Right.

K: What about you?

C: I would say I have two things to recommend. One is a book. It is called The Echo Wife by Sarah Gailey. Highly highly highly recommend. It is … I would say probably categorized … I don’t know if you would say sci-fi; speculative fiction … 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: I never wanna give anything away. But it has to do with cloning.

K: (laughs) Okay.

C: So (laughs) …  

K: I’m in already!

C: Okay!

K: I don’t read a lot of sci-fi, so I’m always interested in when people give recommendations about sci-fi, cuz I’m like, tell me what’s good!

C: I actually really like sci-fi. And The Echo Wife: very good; has to do with cloning. This scientist has developed this cloning process,and her husband basically has stolen her work to create a clone of her after their marriage goes to hell. It’s very interesting. A lot of depth. Good, good read. So The Echo Wife by Sarah Gailey. The other thing: I watched The One on Netflix. I binged it. Which is also kind of like … not sci-fi, but kind of like that speculative fiction where it’s almost like what’s going on right now, but not, and that is based on a book, which I also read, called The One. The book is much, much better and interesting, but The One is basically like someone invents an app where you can—and it sounds so cheesy, but someone invents an app where you submit your DNA, and they will match you with your soulmate, I guess? Your match.

K: (laughs) Whoa. It’s like The Lobster.

C: It was bingeable. It was fine. I got my second vaccine shot this week—

K: (gasps) Yay!

C: —which was huge. Thank god. And I wasn’t feeling super great, so I just watched this.

K: Are there people in this we would know? Or was it just like Netflix people?

C: The only person I recognized in it—and she’s not in it very long—is the woman, and I don’t know her name, the woman who plays the mother of Pamela Adlon on Better Things.

K: Oh! Is it Tovah Feldshuh? She’s from Law & Order also?

C: I don’t know. She’s British.

K: Ah, no. Different person, then.

C: Basically, it’s all British people and like a Scottish person. 

K: Ah, okay.

C: If they did not have British accents, I feel like it would not have worked.

K: (laughs) It would have been less—the quality would have been diminished?

C: Yeah. It would have been worse.

K: I’ve never even heard of it. That’s the thing about Netflix, like they always have these … people will be talking about these shows and I’m just like, I didn’t even know that existed or had come out, and all of it is out, and you can watch the whole thing? Yeah. They have too many—too much on offer, or to keep up with.

C: Yeah.

K: That one sounds interesting. Are the episodes one hour? 

C: Something like that. Forty-five minutes, probably? 

K: Okay. 

C: You don’t have to be super committed to it. It’s fine. And that was where … on Twitter, I posted something that I thought was funny—

K: Oh! (laughs) 

C: —that Krystal got me worried about. So I posted a photo—

K: No, it was a … my tweet was also a joke.

C: I know, I know.

K: Just to be clear. (laughs) But yeah, that was very funny.

C: But in watching the show, there’s a guy who is protesting the woman who invented this app, and he follows her around and he holds up a sign that says “A match made in hell,” and I was dying laughing, thinking that was so funny. So I had to go back after I’d finished watching it, just to screenshot this, specifically to just put this on Twitter. There was thought involved (laughs) in this ridiculous, insipid thing that I tweeted. So anyway, you can follow us on Twitter. Two Cents Plus Tax—

K: Oh yeah, definitely follow us. (laughs) 

C: But anyway, the show is The One. The book is a lot better. The book is totally different than the show. Or maybe it’s not! 

K: (laughs) 

C: I don’t have a good memory, but I do remember the book being kind of different.

K: Mmm. That’s interesting. I feel like that’s something that I would want to—I don’t know. I feel like all the shows people recommend to me, or recommend in terms of Netflix and Hulu and whatever, the ones that people get into, are never ones that I feel like I would like. (laughs) 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: So I don’t tend to be on top of the zeitgeist, where I’m like, see, how come nobody tells me about shows like this? Or like … what’s the space one on Apple TV Plus? For All Mankind? That one also seems interesting, and I’m like, nobody’s talking about these shows (laughs). I feel like I have to find them on my own, which like … who has the time? But I’m gonna watch this one.

C: Well, I’m the only one with the guts to talk about The One on Netflix.

K: Yeah! Good. That’s right. We come for the interesting recommendations here, not the standard, run-of-the-mill ones!

C: Right!

K: Yeah, that’s good. I’m gonna check that out, actually.

C: Well, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for listening.

K: Yeah. 

C: Any last thoughts?

K: Nope! follow us on all the things. Tweet at us. Email us.

C: And again, my birthday is May first.

K: We have a lot more weeks to talk about this so you don’t need to … (laughs) 

C: Yeah. You can @ me if you’re looking for suggestions for gifts. 

K: (laughs) Oh my gosh, yes. Send all your suggestions directly to Caitlin. Not to me. (laughs) 

C: Please do. Caitlin with a K. Caitlin with a K.

K: From now on. Yeah, I think that’s everything!

C: Alright. Bye!

K: Bye!

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