Episode 13: I Don’t Know Her

Two Cents Plus Tax

Episode Thirteen: “Feuds”


Transcript has been lightly edited for readability.

(theme song plays)

K: I’m Krystal.

C: I’m Caitlin.

K: And this is …

K & C: Two Cents Plus Tax!

C: Okay, well welcome back! It’s another fantastic episode of Two Cents Plus Tax, and it’s lucky number 13.

K: Oh my gosh, really?

C: Yeah, we are thirteen. And I would love, love, love to announce … I checked our data today—our metrics, if you will—and I would love to announce that we have a million downloads on our podcast.

K: What?

C: I would love to announce that—

K: Oh, you would love to—

C: It’s not true. 

K: —I was gonna say, you would love to. I see. (laughs)  

C: But I would love to announce that anyway.

K: I would love to announce a lot of things. That would be amazing. I have not looked at the metrics, if you will—

C: Yeah. 

K: —but I feel like people are responding positively to the episodes, so that’s like really nice. 

C: Yes, I agree. 

K: We get a lot of comments on social media, which I was like … wow, people are really (laughs) … it’s great. It’s great that people are commenting and like, you know, enjoying whatever we’re doing on here. Which, I don’t know what it is, but (laughs) …  

C: We’re just bein us, you know? 

K: Just livin.

C: We can’t help being these media … media darlings. 

K: (laughs) Yeah. We’re so, uh … yeah.

C: (laughs) Krystal, you definitely are. I happened to check like Apple Podcasts’—I don’t know, whatever, details. But people … we haven’t even asked people to review our podcasts and subscribe, but I would love them to. But several people have.

K: Whoa!

C: And they’ve given us five-star reviews—

K: Nice.

C: —and they called you out by name Krystal, and said (gasps) “Krystal has finally started a podcast.” 

K: (laughs) 

C: Or something like that. And it was someone—Archie from Twitter?

K: Oh my gosh, yeah Archie! Well, Archie is his Twitter name, but his actual name is Ian. 

C: Curious.

K: I don’t know if he’s like on Twitter anymore. He used to be on there regularly and like, got away which … good for him. 

C: Good for you, Archie.

K: Yeah, good for you! That’s so funny. 

C: Yeah.

K: I haven’t looked at them at all, so that’s really cute, to know that people are like commenting and reviewing. Definitely like really appreciate the five stars—

C: Absolutely!

K: Like, honestly, that’s amazing. Thank you, everyone who commented! I’m gonna take a look at those after the show. 

C: So today is a very special day. Lucky number 13, and we are gonna be talking about one of my favorite topics to discuss. 

K: (laughs) 

C: So we’ve been kind of on a roll, I think, with these hot topics, like get us on The View!

K: (laughs) Oh, god. 

C: Cuz we are hot!

K: No, don’t. I will be—it would be problematic if I were on The View. I don’t wanna have to—

C: Right. Oh, Wendy Williams! Get us on Wendy Williams.

K: Yeah, that’s better. 

C: There we go.

K: I was gonna say, I don’t wanna have to confront Meghan McCain. I might not be as diplomatic—

C: Oh, god.

K: —(laughing) as some of those other women, so …

C: Oh, I don’t know … yeah. I couldn’t handle Meg’s …

K: She’s a lot. She’s a lot. 

C: But Wendy Williams, for sure. The The inventor of how you doin, Wendy Williams.

K: (laughs) If you don’t know what we’re talkin about, just google—do people not know—I’m sure there are people who don’t know Wendy Williams, but like how could you be okay with that?

C: That’s their loss.

K: I know! It’s so weird.

C: So shoutout to Wendy Williams, who —

K: Shoutout to her!

C: —what an amazing—also, speaking of, like she is just a perfect segue into our topic today—

K: (laughs) Yeah. Mm-hmm.

C: —which is … dun duh duh DUH … feuds!

K: Yeah.

C: And Wendy Williams has had her fair share of feuds.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: I was not going to discuss her in particular this day, but we’ll just say shoutout to Wendy Williams, cuz you know, she has—she has instigated plenty a feud. 

K: (laughs) 

C: How’s she doin? Exactly, Toshio, exactly.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: Okay. So now did y’all come prepared with any personal favorite feuds?

K: Yeah, I have a bunch written down. I’m sure we’re gonna have some overlap, just cuz again, we’re both about the same age; we’re on the internet … yeah. So I have my list. But I’m interested to hear yours too. 

C: Mkay. And Toshio, did you come prepared?

K: I wanna hear him tell us about the Demi Lovato stuff, cuz I know he mentioned that before, and I’m like, I’m too—I’m too old to know what that is. 

Toshio: Ooh. Oh yeah, I’m happy to tell you what I know secondhand about all that

C: Well that is all we are concerned with on this podcast. As we said before, we’re not concerned with accuracy.

K: (laughs) How do you feel about it? Yeah.

C: Third-hand; fourth-hand information—we will take it as fact and not question you at all. 

K: Yep.

C: Okay. So I’m going to start. 

K: Alright.

C: I was like, who are my favorite feuds? And I do have several. I have probably three all-time favorite feuds that just—they feed me; they give me life; they give me joy!

K: (laughs) 

C: They shine a little light in my life. And I was like, I don’t even know if I can rate them in a specific order. I feel like they’re all pretty equal. Especially with two. So the first one I would like to start off with is the Kim Cattrall, Sarah Jessica Parker feud.

K: Yes. Yes.

C: Obviously—

K: You mentioned this via text. I expected this one to come up early. 

C: Yes. I did warn you that I will be discussing this.

K: (laughs) 

C: So you know, we’ve talked about Sex and the City. Neither of us were particularly fond of the show, but our opinions don’t matter. So (laughs)

K: (laughs) 

C: —what I find far more interesting is the behind-the-scenes gossip, feud, of Kim Cattrall and Sarah Jessica. So, this is a longstanding feud. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: This is decades-long. And I go back and forth between … you know, who … well, I feel like probably (laughs) ninety-nine percent, it is Kim Cattrall’s fault, of this. Because—

K: (laughs) Wait, I always thought it was the other way around. Maybe I just have different—okay.

C: Okay. Well, I think this is definitely worth a discussion, because … one, I don’t like Sex and the City. I’m not a fan of SJP; I’m not really a fan of … I mean, the other actresses, whatever. Um, Kim Cattrall, she was probably my favorite character on that show. She had the most interesting … entertaining, I guess. But the bar is low, cuz I don’t like the show. Anyway.

K: (laughs) 

C: So they have had this longstanding feud; you know, gone back and forth many times in the press. Sarah Jessica Parker has always kind of handled it, I think, expertly, in the media.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: She has not said a negative thing about Kim Cattrall at all. She’s always really played up the image of her being a nice person—

K: Right.

C: —a professional; et cetera et cetera. Kim Cattrall does not play by those rules.

K: No. (laughs) 

C: Kim Cattrall—and I have some quotes—because … lemme just—lemme say a few quotes, because it culminates, I think, in a very explosive way—

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —on Instagram. But Kim Cattrall … she was asked at an interview if she had been friends with her co-stars, and Kim said “We’ve never been friends.” 

K: (laughs) 

C: Never been friends!

K: Kim!

C: This was before they had come out with—now they’re gonna do a … what’s the word? They’re gonna have a show, instead of a third movie, they’re gonna do a … an actual series.

K: Yeah. Yeah, like a reunion-type … yeah. 

C: Yeah. And so when asked about the rumors about why the third movie didn’t happen—if she was being a diva and asking for money—she says, “This is really where I take to task when people from Sex and the City, and specifically Sarah Jessica Parker”—

K: (laughs) 

C: —and this is in a Piers Morgan interview, if that also gives you any info.

K: Oh my gosh.

C: She says—this is what I love—and then she says, about SJP, she says, “I think she could have been nicer. I really think she could have been nicer. I don’t know what her issue is.

K: (laughing) Oh no. I mean, that’s very good. That’s like the perfect level of like … you’re trying to be sort of diplomatic, but you’re also not really trying to be. You know. You’re trying to be nice without trying to be nice. And that’s like the perfect—yeah.

C: Right. She is … she is shading her, and then later—so that was … I can’t remember. That was probably like 2017. And then in 2019—although, again, don’t fact-check me—then in The Guardian, about Sex and the City, she said, “You know, it was a blessing, but after the second movie, I’d had enough.” She says, “I couldn’t understand why they wouldn’t just replace me with another actress instead of wasting time bullying. No means no!”

K: Oh no! (laughing) Oh my god. I … the one thing about this whole feud, at least with Sarah Jessica Parker and Kim Cattrall, is that you very rarely hear the other two actresses talk about it.

C: Right.

K: Like it almost seems like just between these two. But it would be interesting to hear like from, you know, Cynthia Nixon or … oh, I can’t remember the other woman’s na[me]—

C: Kristin Davis?

K: Kristin Davis. It would be interesting to hear from them, and hear how they kind of feel about—not just on-the-set stuff, but off-the-set things—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and whether or not they are more aligned with like SJP or Kim Cattrall. Cuz I feel like it … you know, whenever there’s a feud and one person has a very strong opinion and the other person is kind of like, “Oh you know, we’re just … people have differences” and, you know, whatever, and you get the sense that it could potentially just be in one person’s head, and so it would be interesting to hear whether or not other people are like, oh, yeah no, it’s actually this way. And, you know, you’re not getting that from these people. It’s very strange.

C: No, but we have heard from some of the male co-stars—

K: Mm.

C: (laughing) And literally everyone has come out in support of Sarah Jessica Parker. They’ve all said—

K: Oh, interesting!

C: Yeah, so like Chris Noth, the guy who played Samantha’s boyfriend—

K: Mm-hmm. (laughs) 

C: And the guy—Willie … Garson? Is that his name? 

K: Garson, yeah.

C: Okay. Literally everyone has been like … look. Kim is on one, and—

K: Oh my gosh. Okay. That’s interesting. I didn’t have that knowledge. 

C: Right. However, Toshio says it seems they just know it’s a paycheck. Which is true, cuz Sarah Jessica Parker runs that show—

K: She’s very—yeah, I was gonna say, she’s the person, right?

C: She is.

K: So if you’re interested in—well, on the one hand, though, Chris Noth has his own deal. Like he—I know he’s Big, and that is like a huge part of that show’s mythology, but like … he doesn’t need (laughs) you know, Sex and the City. He’s been on Law & Order; he’s on The Good Wife; like— 

C: Right. 

K: —if he wanted to be honest about what was going on, I think he would be, so maybe it is that like … (laughing) it’s actually just all Kim doesn’t like Sarah Jessica Parker, which is fine, but it’s also very funny that she feels so strongly.

C: I love that she called it bullying, that—

K: I know! That’s why I’m like—

C: —they were just bullying her into making a movie. No means no!

K: They were bullying her into making more money, like how terrible of them. (laughs)

C: I know.

K: I’m just like, I … okay. I guess. Yeah, it’s just very strange. I wonder if like … one thing I always wondered about this whole situation is whether or not Kim Cattrall went into it with already negative feelings about Sarah Jessica Parker, like … cuz they’ve both been actresses for many decades or whatever before Sex and the City even started.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: So I was like, maybe they just never got along, and this only made—or you know, Kim Cattrall always sort of was like, not really feeling her, and then they started working together and she was like, no I … it’s even worse than I expected.

C: I think supposedly the feud started either at the beginning or after the second season of Sex and the City

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —and then at one point, when they were filming, Sarah Jessica Parker rented a house for her and Kristin Davis and Cynthia Nixon, but Kim Cattrall was not living with them during filming.

K: (laughs) Okay.

C: And that happened. So this is going on. They’ve talked about it and been asked about it many times literally for twenty years, off and on, during the press. Sarah Jessica Parker always denies it and is always very circumspect about it—

K: Right.

C: —but kind, and, you know, compliments Kim, whereas Kim’s just not having it.

K: Yeah.

C: So the culmination of this—and this, actually, I think precedes some of the comments that Kim made in the Guardian interview. So, sadly—this is super sad—

K: Oh no.

C: —but yeah, so Kim Cattrall’s brother had depression—

K: Mm-hmm. 

C: —and went missing, and then it was eventually discovered that he had died by suicide.

K: Right. 

C: So, that is a horrible, tragic thing that happened.

K: Yeah.

C: So then what happened was this … you know, this was presented in the media as a story. Kim Cattrall had—I guess had posted stuff, you know, about it on her Instagram. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: So then Sarah Jessica Parker commented—

K: (laughs) Oh no!

C: —on Kim’s Instagram, something about … just kind of a … you know, a basic thing that you would say, like “Sending love to your family”—

K: Right.

C: “Godspeed to your brother”—

K: Trying to be like a good person, yeah. 

C: Right. So saying—which, I’m like, okay. That’s fine. Kim? Not having it.

K: (groans)

C: So this is back in … okay, so this is—cuz I took a photo of it—one of my all-time favorite just things of all time. I mean, Instagram posts, comments, whatever. It was February 10th, 2018—

K: Okay.

C: This is still up on Kim Cattrall’s Instagram.

K: It’s up still? Oh my god. (laughs) 

C: It is still up! She has not taken it down.

K: (laughs) Oh my god.

C: So she (laughs) … she posted this on her Instagram for all to see and says, “I don’t need your love or support at this tragic time, Sarah Jessica Parker.” Tagged her. 

K: Oh, good lord.

C: Then, in the comments. In the captions—this is where she just lays it all out. 

K: It’s so long, too. I hope we can link to this, cuz it’s very long.

C: Oh, I’m gonna—I will—and I will put a photo of this on our Instagram page for the episode, but she says (sighs)

K: (laughs) 

C: “My mom asked me today, when will that Sarah Jessica Parker”—again, tagged—“When will that Sarah Jessica Parker, that hypocrite, leave you alone?”

K: (laughs) 

C: And then she goes on to say—this is—and so I guess Kim Cattrall’s mother, also very unhappy with SJP.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: She says, “Your continuous reaching out is a painful reminder of how cruel you really were then and now. Let me make this very clear (if I haven’t already). You are not my family. You are not my friend. So I’m writing to tell you one last time to stop exploiting our tragedy in order to restore your ‘nice girl persona.’”

K: Oof.

C: (laughing) Then she puts a link in there to a New York Post article about the “mean girl culture” that destroyed Sex and the City. Wow.

K: Oof. 

C: Wow wow wow.

K: That is rough. That’s rough stuff. (laughs) It’s … that is sort of one of the things, I think if people wanted to be like, alright, it’s a little too far, people could point to that. Because I understand Kim being like, I don’t want you to contact me, and telling her—you know, telling Sarah Jessica Parker that privately, like in a DM or something—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: (laughing) But the fact that she just kind of was like … here’s a screenshot of like “Don’t contact me,” and then here’s all this text about like why not to contact me, it’s just like, oof, that is … that’s rough stuff.

C: It is so intense. And supposedly, Sarah Jessica Parker did try and contact her privately. 

K: Right. I’m sure she did. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: That’s why I’m like, why not just … you know—

C: Leave it like that.

K: —take that route? Instead of, no, I need to put her on blast publicly again for … reaching out in a difficult time? Like, I don’t know. Just very … oof. Kim. 

C: Yeah. 

K: This is why I’m like, there has to be something more than just like … a general dislike. You know what I mean? Because I feel like if this … it’s not something you do when you’re like, oh I just don’t really care for that person. Like I feel like there has to be some event or something that was just so upsetting to Kim that she just couldn’t get past it.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: But it’s just strange that like this is what it is, or this is what I think it is, and it’s just never come out. I don’t know. It’s just so weird.

C: Yeah.

K: But yikes, yeah. This is like one of the bigger ones, because it’s been going on for so long.

C: Yes.

K: Like it’s kind of like our … on my list, I have the Bette and—

C: Yes.

K: —(laughs) the Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, and it’s like the modern version of that. 

C: Right. 

K: Like where they’re just like … nope. (laughs) Like, they just do not … it’s never gonna … never gonna be a resolution, because they—it’s just never gonna happen. Because—mostly cuz one person is like, no thank you. At least in that case they both were like, no we just hate each other, and that’s fine. (laughs)

C: Right.

K: But this one is more like … yeah, one person is very intensely anti-the other person. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Yeah, I don’t know. Toshio put something in the chat about how like … it’s kind of strange, because, you know, this was Kim Cattrall’s like, height of her career, like prior to any other acting. She did Mannequin, and like—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —I think she was also in um … Police Academy?

C: Yeah.

K: But like, those movies were popular, but they weren’t like, oh, they’re still being watched like (laughing) twenty years later or whatever. So it’s interesting that like she would continue to sort of push this feud, I guess you wanna call it, cuz it definitely seems a little more one-sided than anything. 

C: Yeah. (laughs) 

K: But like, considering that her career has—it probably isn’t doing well in the wake of all of this. Like I can’t see it being very … because like you said, Sarah Jessica Parker is beloved, and very powerful, and so it’s really strange that Kim’s like, nope. (laughs) Still going, still pushin it—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —even though like I wanna work, and I’m just not, really. So yeah. Because she did have a series that was on like … I don’t know what network it was on, but it was on for like—oh I think it was ABC, and it was on for like one season last year. And—

C: Filthy Rich?

K: Yes. I think that’s what it was called. She does like one thing a year. And it’s kind of like—I guess if you’re, you know, her, you don’t necessarily have to work, like you probably are pretty comfortable, but you probably still want to. (laughs) You know? 

C: Yeah.

K: Like I don’t know, I just can’t imagine. (sighs) It’s a rough situation, for sure.

C: She’s definitely done some stuff for British TV.

K: Mm. Okay.

C: And like this … I think it was Swedish, cuz I get these channels, Acorn and BritBox—

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —that is mostly international stuff, and I’ve watched her in a couple shows. She played the Prime Minister in one.

K: (laughs) Okay.

C: Enjoyed her. I did. 

K: (laughs) 

C: So yeah, I feel like she’s just like, “I do not wanna play Samantha again.”

K: That’s fair.

C: “Stop bullying me! No means no.”

K: I kind of get that though. Like if you had this really terrible experience, even if it was only terrible in your own mind, like you wouldn’t want to continue to sort of put yourself in that situation where you’re interacting with those people, so I get that. But it’s not like they can’t do the show without her. It’s gonna be very different, and … actually, she probably does have a lotta leverage, because she was the most popular character on that show, like I know people liked Carrie and were like, oh, they’re invested in her relationships, but like … it’s either you’re a Carrie or a Samantha. Like those are the two main actors, and you know, characters, from that show, and … you know, if one of them isn’t there, what does that mean for whatever the reboot—or whatever they’re calling it—is gonna be?

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah, exactly. (laughing) Toshio … I mean, no shade to her, but Toshio put in the chat “No one’s checkin for Kristin Davis.” And that’s true.

C: (laughs) 

K: Like, sorry Kristin Davis. You’re very attractive; you’re a very beautiful woman, but … you know. Your character was not the character that people were supposed to—that people hooked into. 

C: Yeah. Nobody cared. 

K: I mean, she had really good hair. That’s the only thing I—

C: Good for her! Good for you, Kristin!

K: (laughs) Yeah. Man, this one is a really good one to start with, cuz it’s just … it’s—

C: It’s iconic. It’s an iconic feud.

K: It’s so intense! Like it’s … it probably isn’t ever gonna end. And if it does, it would be amazing to figure out like … how. (laughs) How, like what is gonna be the thing that … you know, puts the pin in it? I just don’t know. 

C: When will “that hypocrite”—

K: I know!

C: —that Sarah Jessica Parker, leave you alone?

K: It’s rough, man. Like that is … oof. Cuz if you’re Sarah Jessica Parker, what do you say to that, right? Like this woman just lost her child. Like—

C: I know. You can’t say anything. Yeah.

K: —you can’t come out and be like, hey, how dare you? You know? (laughs) You just kinda have to take it.

C: Right. Right.

K: And it’s … ugh. I don’t know, man. It’s so wild, that one. I—I …

C: Yeah.

K: I mean, best of luck to them! (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

K: On their repairing their friendship. I don’t think it’s gonna happen, but … 

C: No.

K: Yeah.

C: Alright. How bout you?

K: So I mean, I kinda mentioned it already, but like Bette Davis and Joan Crawford, like—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: This is the classic Hollywood feud—the decades and decades-long feud. Like—

C: Yes.

K: Apparently—okay, so everyone knows Bette Davis, Joan Crawford, like very (clears throat) successful and popular actresses in like, classic Hollywood era. Like they both sort of started acting in the 30’s, and sort of shot to the top of—you know, became incredibly, incredibly successful, and not just successful, but also critically acclaimed actresses, both of them. You know, Oscar-winning actresses. And apparently, they had a—so everyone knows they had a feud for like forty years. (laughs) And apparently it started over a woman? Or a man? So Bette Davis had done a movie with some co-star. I think his name is something French. He’s not important because he didn’t—you know, the feud itself is the thing that really we care about, but he—she did a movie with him and she like had a crush on him and they sort of started like a relationship—

(dog barks)

K: —and she was interested in continuing that after the movie—filming of the movie ended, and like right after the movie ended, like Joan Crawford married him.

C: Oh!

K: And so (laughing) then they were like—Bette Davis was like, you’re my enemy now. And so that is essentially how their feud like started. And it’s interesting cuz I think people probably now, in 2021, know the sort of Ryan Murphy version of their story and that they—you know, the Feud: Bette vs Joan show that was out—miniseries that was out—a couple of years ago was like incredibly popular. (laughs) Because I think people are still really interested in why it went on for so long. And it truly did. Like the movie that Bette Davis acted in was in 1935 or something, and Joan Crawford died in like the 70’s, I think? So they were literally anti-each other for like (laughs) four full decades. Which is just like, wild. And the culmination—

C: That’s some stamina.

K: It’s true! Aznd it’s really strange, because they—not only did they … you know, they’re in Hollywood; they’re in the same circles, so they’re seeing each other all the time—but they’re like working together.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: And one of the most famous things they ever did was the movie What Ever Happened to Baby Jane, which—

C: Classic.

K: It’s so good, people. If you have not seen this movie, please go watch it. Like not just because of the backstory, but also just cuz it’s like a really weird, interesting movie—

C: And can we just say though—can we just take (laughs) a moment to talk about What Ever Happened to Baby Jane where—

K: (laughs) It’s … yeah.

C: Joan Crawford is the disabled woman who—for some reason, mysteriously, she uses her wheelchair, but she’s confined to the upstairs—

K: Right, yes. If you’re a disabled person and you’ve seen that movie—

C: (laughs) How did she get upstairs?

K: —you’re just like, okay, first of all there’s a huge flaw. (laughing) We need to talk about it.

C: Right. (laughs) 

K: Because, yeah. So the movie, Jane Crawford plays, like Caitlin just said, a disabled woman who lives a wheelchair—who uses a wheelchair—and lives in a house with her sister, who is like a—

C: Blanche!

K: Yes. Who—she’s like a washed-up like child actor, and she … she is really holding tight to that identity. She dresses very flamboyantly, and her makeup is very garish—

C: (laughs) 

K: —and she just can’t like let go of that … of that identity. And they’re both in this tug-of-war, where they like need each other, right, because Blanche—she doesn’t have anyone, and neither does the Joan Crawford character, and Joan Crawford[’s] character literally needs her cuz she needs someone to like … you know, help her (laughs) and be her carer in various ways. And so the movie is very … (sighs) I don’t know. We’re not gonna get into What Happened to Baby Jane in the plot, but it was a very popular movie. Like incredibly popular.

C: Yeah.

K: And it’s sort of, as Toshio’s mentioning—I was just about to get into it—like they … the reason it was so popular is that they had both kinda been floundering in their careers prior to that, and them coming together in that movie, and you know, the movie itself was actually quite a good movie, but they made a lot of money. And it sort of reinvigorated their careers after a couple of … you know, years of like duds. But it did sort of lead to both of them kind of spawning … the quote Toshio put in the chat—”The film’s success spawned a succession of horror/thriller films featuring psychotic older women, later dubbed ‘the psycho-biddy genre.’”

C: (laughs) 

K: Which like … it kind of is funny, because the psycho-biddy drama is essentially what the like Mommie Dearest movie is—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Which is basically the life of Joan Crawford. So it’s just kind of (laughs) interesting.

C: Written by her daughter!

K: Ugh. That whole situation.

C: Christina.

K: That’s another feud that you could get into. (laughs) Honestly.

C: Oh my goodness. Yeah.

K: (clears throat). But so they just for years, they just did not—they hated each other. And probably the other culmination of their sort of clash was in the 60’s, they—Bette was nominated for Best Actress, after not being nominated for many years for an Oscar, and (laughs) Joan Crawford basically like pulled strings behind the scenes to be onstage to accept the Oscar for the woman who won it. Like if it was not Bette Davis, she wanted to be onstage. So she contacted basically all the other actresses and was like, “Hey, are you gonna go to the Oscars? Like if you’re not, can I accept the award on your behalf if you win?”

C: Why would they not be going to the Oscars, though?

K: Because a couple of them were working. Like doing other … like shooting movies, and I think Anne Bancroft, who eventually won it, was in New York doing a play—

C: Oh!

K: —and she didn’t think she was gonna win. Because like (clears throat) if you’re in a category with like Joan Crawford—or Bette Davis—

C: Right.

K: —you’re like, well, it’s clearly not gonna be me, right?

C: Mm-hmm.

K: So Anne Bancroft was in New York, and she was like, yeah yeah, sure. Like, whatever, I’m not gonna win it, so go ahead.

C: (laughs) 

K: But she actually did. And so Joan Crawford got to go onstage and be like, “I’m accepting this on behalf of Anne Bancroft”—

C: (laughs) 

K: —just to rub it in Bette Davis’s face! Which is like—

C: Ohh!

K: —(laughing) so wild to me!

C: What a mindfuck!

K: She just needed to like … not only did she need to like have that Oscar heights again and you feel the weight of the award in her hand, but she wanted to be there and rub it in Bette Davis’s face and be like, it’s me and not you. Even though it’s not even her! Like she didn’t even—

C: Wow. And it’s not even her award!

K: It’s just … it’s such a wild like … man. It’s so incredible. Definitely watch the … the Feud episode—the Ryan Murphy show Feud—watch the episodes about that whole like, how that all went down, because it only happened because Joan Crawford was as powerful as she was. Like she got to contact the people who were in charge of producing The Oscars, and then all the actors. If you’re not Joan Crawford, like (laughs) … you’re not gonna go to like Anne Bancroft and be like, “Hey, uh, so I wanna do this thing. Are you cool with it?” Like, Anne Bancroft is not gonna say no to Joan Crawford.

C: Right.

K: Like you’re just not gonna do that. So yeah. It’s such a wild story. And they just continued for the next I think … you know, Joan Crawford didn’t live that much longer after that, but like … the entire time, they just were like constantly sniping at each other in interviews—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and like it just never, never ended, and … it—I don’t know how much longer it would have gone on if Joan Crawford had lived. If she had lived into the 80’s like Bette Davis did, I’m sure it would have not stopped. (laughs) Like it just … it just was such—it’s one of those stories where you’re just like, man, it’s so wild to be so addicted to being the best that you just can’t … you just, you know, you have to destroy the other people who are even close to you. Cuz that’s essentially what it’s about, right? Like they’re both these actresses who existed at the time where Hollywood had so much prestige and so much power that they were just like, I can do whatever I want (laughs). And if someone else is even like remotely as successful as I am, I can use the various power and influence to sort of destroy them. (laughs) Which is just so … I don’t know. There’s just something so interesting about how things used to function in like the sort of classic Hollywood era. Because like a lot of this stuff, they said in interviews, but you know, the studios had a lotta power and they could put—you know, place stories into different publications; they had particular reporters on their payroll; you know. They could just do (laughing) whatever they wanted cuz they had, you know, a monopoly on entertainment at that time—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —so I don’t know. It’s just such a wild, wild story. And it like really happened. It all happened for real. Not a movie. (laughs)

C: Yes. Yeah. They did not mince words, and Bette Davis—I just saw she said “The best time I ever had with Joan Crawford is when I pushed her down the stairs in What Ever Happened to Baby Jane?” (laughs).

K: (laughs) That’s a classic scene in the movie. Yeah. Man, what a time. Like what a time to have been alive; to have been a fan of like these actresses; just … so uh—

C: What a time for disabled representation in cinema.

K: No, it was bad. (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

K: It’s not that it’s good, but it was still bad then too. (laughing) It was worse. Yeah. That movie is wild. I remember the first time I saw it, I was like … well it can’t possibly be as weird as everyone says it is. And then you watch it and you’re like—

C: What?

K: —what on earth? (laughing) Like what is happening in this movie?

C: Yeah.

K: But yeah. Bette vs. Joan, just an all-time … an all-time feud.

C: What team are you?

K: I mean … I would—because I like her movies more, I would say I’m Team Bette—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and she’s just like much more of a character, like much more of a … the kind of character you can get behind, cuz she’s so good with words—

C: Yeah.

K: —she’s so great with interviews; like you just hear her and you’re like, man, she was like the cleverest person that ever lived.

C: Yeah.

K: So I’m kinda Team Bette. I mean, how can you go against the woman who was in All About Eve? Like that movie—

C: Mm-hmm. Yeah, classic movie.

K: But yeah, I don’t know. And I think too, maybe unfairly, people have a negative opinion of Joan Crawford because of Mommie Dearest, and—

C: I wouldn’t say unfairly.

K: I mean, it’s not un—but I think the movie is obviously very exaggerated, you know? 

C: The movie is, but—

K: But maybe she was that kinda person. (laughs) I don’t know.

C: I think she was. I think she was an extremely abusive person. 

K: Yeah.

C: I mean, I think that’s pretty well-established. But I … I can’t remember the details of her childhood, but I think it was pretty terrible.

K: I think it was bad, yeah.

C: I mean, yeah. I think it was really awful.

K: Like many of the actresses who were sort of famous in that old Hollywood era, she came from nothing.

C: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

K: Like [a] very poor background, Joan Crawford, and so … you know. I kind of get it. When you’re up there, you’re at the top, and you’re like, well I have to stay here forever cuz I know what it’s like to be on the other side of this. Like, no thank you. (laughs) I get that. But like … oof. Yeah. And (clears throat) the whole deal with her daughter, as you mentioned, Joan Crawford’s daughter—she has these adopted children, and her daughter Christina, they just—she and Christina just never … they just never saw eye-to-eye. And the movie Mommie Dearest is based on Christina’s sort of autobiography, memoir essentially—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —that she basically like shopped around and … yeah, there’s a—I forget what episode of the podcast I listened to about the whole making of that movie … oh! It was a YouTube video on this channel called Be Kind Rewind, and she does a lot of stuff about actresses—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —like a lot of sort of … you know, YouTube-style explainer things about actresses, and she has a whole one about Mommie Dearest and how it came about, and Joan Crawford, but also Franc[es]—(laughs) no, not Frances McDormand—

C: Faye Dunaway?

K: Faye Dunaway, and like how it affected her career and why she ended up getting the role in the first place, and it’s just so—it’s really good. I highly recommend that on the Be Kind Rewind channel. But yeah, the whole story about how that movie even got made, and like in the way that it did, is kind of interesting. Because it—essentially they wanted it to be like a … you know, a prestige-y drama—

C: Right.

K: —a, you know, biopic about this woman’s life and how like … her clawing her way to the top, and then trying to figure out how to stay there, but also dealing with these personal life problems. Like she never was lucky in love, and you know, she had these children that she just had an oppositional relationship with, and it was very … the intent (laughs) was for it to be a very serious movie, and it did not come off that way.

C: No. It is so campy.

K: And so the studios had to figure out like how do we lead into this, right? 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Because this is what the movie became, like can we use it? And so basically the entire marketing effort for the movie completely changed, where there would be ads in the paper being like “No More Wire Hangers”; they would do showings where they encouraged people to like yell out … you know how when you go to see [The] Rocky Horror [Picture Show] or whatever—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and people are like shouting stuff at the screen? (laughing) They would set up screenings where people were encouraged to do that, and like it just became a whole thing. But yeah. Joan Crawford, interesting life. Very interesting life. Bette Davis, same; very interesting life. But yeah, I think I’m probably Team Bette just because I like her more, but I don’t think either one of them are like right or good. (laughs) 

C: Yeah.

K: I think they both were terrible. Terrible, terrible choices.

C: (laughs) 

K: But yeah. It’s one of the ones that’s kinda fun, cuz it’s like … it’s just so interesting the heights that they would go to and the stuff they would say about each other, like—

C: Right? Brutal.

K: —you know, (laughing) both of them—yeah—would say about each other in public. It’s just … oof. Oof. (laughs) But yeah. Bette vs. Joan, one of the all-time feuds. One of the best.

C: That was an excellent choice, Krystal.

K: Yeah.

C: My next favorite … and I’m sure you can probably guess who these—who this is.

K: Mm.

C: But so this is another longstanding feud between two divas.

K: Oh gosh.

C: And with this feud has come one of my favorite quotes of all time, which we will get to.

K: (laughs) 

C: So … this is between Mariah and J. Lo.

K: (laughing) It’s so funny that you mention Mariah, cuz I have on my list literally Mariah vs. everyone—

C: Yes! I thought that too.

K: Cuz Mariah is always shading everyone. But this is a perfect one, for sure.

C: Oh, the queen of shade. Mariah knows how to deliver shade. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: Not only is she an excellent songwriter, she puts those writing skills to … putting other women down in the press—

K: (laughs) 

C: —and I’m here for it. So this is a feud, too, that has some very … has a[n] interesting origin. Because for a long time, people were like, what is going on? 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: Like what is this even about? Is it just jealousy? Because Mariah, as we have all seen, can appear rather insecure in the press, because if she were secure, she wouldn’t be … you know.

K: (laughs) Right. She wouldn’t be—

C: Making all these comments.

K: Yeah yeah yeah.

C: So it started … apparently, according to Mariah’s memoir, she said that … so a long time ago, Mariah was married to Tommy Mottola, who is head of Sony.

K: Yes.

C: And he was sort of this Svengali figure in her life who was very abusive—

K: Yes. If people don’t … yeah. If people don’t know—so this was a big deal for me as a millennial, but I think older—or younger people don’t remember this, but when Mariah Carey first came on the scene, she was very modest. Like she always was covered up, very, you know … yeah, she was just very modestly presented. Even in music videos, she just was not … she wasn’t what you would think of as necessarily sort of overtly sexy. Even though she’s beautiful and everything—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —but like, she was very, very buttoned-down, for sure. Which … I bet people are like, what? Mariah Carey? And it’s just like, yeah. For probably the first couple albums, she was not—when she was still married to Tommy Mottola—

C: Yeah.

K: —it was just—he was not a fan of her being like, look at me! Look at my body. (laughs) Or whatever.

C: Right. So she married her manager. He’s obviously much older than her; very wealthy; very powerful. Completely controlled her image—

K: Right.

C: —locked her up in a house in Upstate New York; put her under surveillance. 

K: Yeah.

C: She couldn’t leave. I mean, she’s like nineteen at the time. 

K: Yes.

C: Yeah. She called it Sing Sing, where she lived.

K: (laughs) 

C: So he was very controlling of her career and didn’t want her to kinda go R&B—

K: Mm-hmm.

C: He, I don’t think was a fan of Black people, ironically, because—

K: She’s Black, yeah.

C: —Mariah’s half Black, yeah. So anyway, eventually Mariah escapes the marriage and she’s still under Sony contract. Apparently J. Lo was also at Sony.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: And Tommy was very upset by her divorcing. Still trying to control her career; essentially trying to sabotage her career at this point. 

K: Right.

C: So what Mariah says as the origin of the feud is that after the divorce, she was gonna put out the single “Loverboy,” which had a sample on it from … I think the band was like Yellow Music Orchestra or something? I don’t know. So to sabotage the single, Tommy gets J. Lo hooked up with some other song. Oh! “I’m Real.” 

K: Oh. Mm-hmm.

C: And it uses the same sample as Mariah’s “Loverboy.”

K: Mm-hmm.

C: So Mariah gets pissed off, cuz she’s like, he’s trying to ruin my career. Mariah’s like, she stole my song, and I hate her forever now.

K: (laughs) 

C: And so as we know, that has been sort of the … sort of started this feud, and Mariah was not kind to J. Lo in the press.

K: (laughs) 

C: And in 2002, she was on Larry King and (laughing) she said about J. Lo—which I just thought, this is so perfect—she said, “There are rivalries, but I don’t think she has anything to do with me. My whole thing is singing, writing songs.” She then went on to say that her singing voice is “a god-given talent that I’m grateful for. Her thing is something different.”

K: (laughing) Oh! Brutal! I mean, it’s not … she’s not wrong.

C: (laughs) No.

K: Like this is the thing about J. Lo vs. Mariah. It’s not a competition. It’s no contest.

C: No. No.

K: Like, J. Lo can dance. That’s the one thing Mariah can’t do.

C: Right.

K: I love Mariah to death; she’s not a dancer.

C: No.

K: So bless her heart when she tries, but like … J. Lo is—she can’t even touch the hem of Mariah’s gown. Like, not even close. J. Lo is the definition of the Aretha Franklin like great gowns, beautiful gowns.

C: Yes!

K: Like that’s her whole … her whole deal is like, she’s very beautiful; she can wear a dress. She can dance, but if you’re talking about songwriting— 

C: She’s very pretty to look at.

K: Yeah. Gorgeous. But like, you … I’m sorry; she can’t sing. Like I don’t think people really believe—

C: No.

K: —that she’s good (laughing) at singing, cuz she’s decidedly not. And Mariah’s right, like what could she say about Mariah? She’s had like … what, number one songs in like four decades? Like J. Lo’s not ever gonna touch that, so.

C: Yeah. No, Mariah has written more number one songs than like … anyone. 

K: She literally is like … when you think of Christmas, you think of Mariah Carey. Like no other person—

C: She invented Christmas. It did not exist before Mariah. 

K: Yeah, basically! (laughs) 

C: Thank you.

K: No other singer has that cachet. And definitely not J. Lo, so—

C: Nuh-uh.

K: Yeah. She’s not wrong. Not wrong.

C: Yeah. And Mariah … you know, Mariah has shaded plenty of people throughout her career. Madonna! Madonna came after Mariah after … I think it was “Always Be My Baby,” and Madonna, who (sighs) … you know—

K: That’s my jam. 

C: —whatever, Madonna—

K: What did she say about “Always Be My Baby”? I love that song.

C: She was like, “I’d rather die than sing songs like ‘Always Be My Baby,’” and Mariah was like—

K: What?!

C: —Mariah said something to the effect of, you know, like “Well that’s okay because like, I haven’t listened to Madonna since seventh or eighth grade, when she used to be popular.(laughs) 

K: Oof. Jesus Christ! She is like absolutely just demolishing these women, like, yikes.

C: Yes. Yeah, she’s just—it’s masterful—

K: I mean, it’s so good!

C: —the way Mariah knows how to shade these bitches coming for her. So anyhoo, fastforward. I don’t know where I was the moment that I first heard the four words that would change my life forever.

K: Oh, god, I know what you’re gonna say! (laughs) 

C: But I cannot think of a more iconic shading than when Entertainment Tonight asked—

K: Oh no!

C: —Mariah Carey … first they asked her about Beyoncé. They say, what do you think of Beyoncé, Mariah? She says, “Oh, she’s … she’s nice. She writes good songs.”

K: Mm-hmm.

C: They say, what do you know—what do you think of J. Lo?

K: (groans)

C: She goes … she says—

K & C: “I don’t know her.”

K: (laughs) 

C: And shakes her head with a smile! “I don’t know her.”

K: Oh, my god. Like it’s so perfect. It’s so just being like, “No … she doesn’t even register. Like she’s not even on my radar.”

C: Mm-hmm.

K: “I never paid attention.” (laughs) Like she might as well have just said like, “Who?” (laughs) Because I mean it’s that … ugh. It’s so good. It’s like one of the most iconic—not just an iconic you know, just a[n] absolute shading, but like it’s a really good gif, too.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Like it’s one of the best gifs to deploy when you’re just like, I don’t recognize that person’s existence; they don’t mean anything to me; like they are beneath me. It’s just—ugh, my god. It’s so perfect. It’s so perfect. And she’s doing it in a very like … again, where she’s being polite about being absolutely devastating. But she’s just like, “No, I don’t even … I—nope. Name doesn’t sound familiar.” (laughing) Like it’s—

C: Smiling through gritted teeth and shaking her hair! 

K: Yeah! It’s—oh my god—

C: “I don’t know her.”

K: It’s … it’s perfect.

C: Ugh. Chef’s kiss!

K: So good. I love Mariah. She’s like—

C: I love Mariah. I love Mariah.

K: Ooh. She’s so good. And she—like it would be—I think people would be less tolerant of this kind of like just casual (laughs) dismissal if she wasn’t so talented. You know? Like she’s—who else is touching Mariah? 

C: No one!

K: The only person who could have is no longer with us, and that’s Whitney Houston.

C: Right.

K: Like there’s no one else.

C: But they also feuded. Oh, speaking of, they had a feud—

K: Like I said, Mariah vs. everyone!

C: They had a feud, and Whitney pulled a very similar comment. When she went on a talk show, I think in France or like somewhere in Scandinavia—apologies; I forgot to research that. But they ask her … this is very similar, which, again, masterclass in shadery. They said “So what do you think of Mariah?” And she’s like, “I don’t think of her.

K: Oof!

C: And the audience goes, “Ooh!”

K: Oh my god. Rough stuff. Yeah. No, that one’s good, too. But see, the thing about them is they like worked together after—I think it was after that.

C: Yes. They did the song “When You Believe.”

K: Yeah. And they … they looked really cute in the video (laughs). I remember that.

C: Mm.

K: But yeah, that’s the only other person who could even say that, and people were like, you know what? (laughs) It’s fine. You know? 

C: Yeah. (laughs) 

K: If Whitney Houston wants to say that, like … okay. What are you gonna say to Whitney Houston, you know? But like—

C: Right.

K: —no one can say anything about Mariah. Like it’s just not even—

C: No.

K: No one can even get close to her. 

C: No. She’s got like a[n] eight-octave range; she does the whistle-range. I mean … her version of “O Holy Night”? I listen to that every year during Christmastime. Fall on your knees. I will.

K: Oh, my god.

C: That makes me … just goosebumps. So good.

K: So … she’s incredible. But yeah, she’s had her run-ins with like everyone.

C: Yes. Nicki Minaj? They had a feud.

K: Uh … it’s not shocking. (laughs) 

C: Nicki feuds—Nicki is another one where, you know, she feuds with literally everyone—

K: Yeah.

C: —and that was gonna be one that I was like, eh. But like the Nicki Minaj, Lil Kim feud; Nicki Minaj vs.—

K: Miley Cyrus?

C: —Taylor. Nicki Minaj vs. Miley. Nicki Minaj vs. Mariah. 

K: Yep.

C: Nicki Minaj vs. Remy Ma. Like the list goes on and on. 

K: (laughs) The thing that’s funny though too about these kinds of … I don’t know, feuds, I guess you could call them—is that like I feel like when you’re a certain kind of celebrity, that people love to play into them and play them up even if they’re not super serious, you know? Because people love a girlfight. Right?

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Like they love it. They love when women are being catty. Even though everyone says they hate it (laughs), like they actually love it, and yeah. There’s this whole like there can only be one kind of mentality, like Toshio just mentioned. If someone is popular, then no one else can be as popular as that person.

C: Yeah.

K: Which is like … why? (laughs) Like there’s plenty of popularity to go around. (sniffs)

C: Mm-hmm.

K: But yeah. It’s just like, nope. No one can be as good. But sometimes I do think like the J. Lo and Mariah Carey thing, like that’s … that’s not a—you know, no one is debating whether or not J. Lo and Mariah are on the same level. Like they’re just not.

C: No.

K: But you know, there’s this idea that not only can they not be on the same level, like they have to be like anti-each other because they’re both—which in this case, it was true, because there was like (laughs) machinations happening where like, you know, Tommy Mottola was trying to like—

C: Uh-huh.

K: —stick it to Mariah. But in general, there are often these feelings of like, well, they are not working together, but they’re in the same kind of space, like entertainment space, so we have to pick one. And that one can be the only one that is good or that we support or whatever, and it’s just like, no, you can like a lot of people. (laughs) Like everyone can be popular or successful or whatever. It doesn’t have to just be one. But yeah, that … man. The Mariah thing, though, that’s an incredible, just … ugh, she’s so good. She’s so good at this.

C: It’s so good. Yeah. 

K: It’s just that it’s like … it’s so—the things she says are so much worse than saying something shitty, because she says something where … the way she says things, it sort of—you get the sense that not only does she not actually care about this person, like she’s not gonna even try to. (laughs) Like she’s not even gonna expend any energy being like, “Oh yeah, this person’s on my radar” or whatever. It’s just like, “No. You don’t even rate”—to Mariah—”You don’t even rate enough to say something bad about,” which is like … oof. That’s tough, man.

C: Yeah. She does go into the feud in her memoir, but she doesn’t refer to J. Lo by name. She won’t even mention her name. 

K: Everyone knows.

C: She says, “Another performer on Sony (who I don’t know)”—

K: (laughs) Mariah, stop it!

C: (laughs) Love you, Mimi! Love you.

K: She’s so … aw, man. What a—she’s a treasure. For real. 

C: Yes. She is.

K: But yes. Okay. So I guess … I mean, there’s some I wanna talk about, but I don’t wanna go to the giant ones, like Tupac vs. Biggie, like everyone knows … West Coast, East Coast rap. That was a … that’s a sad one. That’s—

C: It is a sad one. 

K: To me that’s a feud where I’m like, ugh. I wish it would have gone differently. 

C: Yeah.

K: I was trying to think of some ones that were … that mattered to me that other people might not care about. (laughs) 

C: Ooh, okay.

K: So one that I’m just like, I have no idea how this even started—and I was like, shocked when I first heard about it—but do you guys ever—have you guys ever watched that show What Not To Wear?

C: Oh, is that the like the kind of annoying guy and the woman—

K: K wait. I’m gonna—don’t take a side yet. (laughs) I’m gonna—

C: Okay!

K: Yeah, so the show What Not To Wear; it was like this very popular makeover show on TLC—

C: Yeah. Yes! Okay.

K: Yeah, and it was like … so it was on TLC, and it first started —I think in the first season, it was like this fashion person Stacy London and I believe on the first season it was like Zac Posen or some other designer guy who was the co-host with her. And basically the premise of the show is that they would find people who had like bad fashion sense—oh it was Wayne Scot Lukas that was the first season’s host with Stacy London. And they would find people who had like—who were submitted to the show—who had bad fashion sense. And it could be bad in various ways. Like if they were maybe dressing a little too inappropriately, like too … their clothes were too tight or short or revealing or whatever. Or they were like stuck in a particular era and they couldn’t (laughs), you know, make their wardrobe modern, or they just were like very frumpy and people were like, you need to level up. And so they would essentially look at their wardrobe, figure out what things they wanted to highlight, take them shopping, and then they would like do a reveal at the end. And they’d do like their hair and stuff too. And they would do … this show was on for like a decade.

C: Yeah.

K: And after the first season, they got rid of the original guy host, Wayne Scot Lukas, and got another co-host, Clinton Kelly, who’s another fashion guy, who came in with Stacy. And they had such incredible chemistry. Such incredible chemistry with the guests. And one of the things I really liked about What Not To Wear—it was never a show that was like, mean. It was not about like, you look bad, and you’re a bad person, and your clothes mean that you’re, you know, not good. It was like, what do you like about yourself? We’re gonna play that up in your clothes. Right? And so it was—and then once the show got very popular towards the end of its run, they started to bring in a lot of guests who were like … you would never see on like a reality like makeover show. It was, you know, people who had survived cancer and had mastectomies and were feeling not confident in their appearance, or people who use wheelchairs and were like, I like fashion but it’s really hard to figure how to—you know, what to do with like … and I just thought it was a really cool show, and they seemed like they got along really well, but apparently they hate each other? (laughs) 

C: Ooh!

K: And this is something that I do not understand why. Like they’re both very … very attractive people, like Clinton is this super tall like blondie queer man, and Stacy is like … I think she’s Jewish. She’s kind of short, or shorter, and she has like dark, super black hair, but with like a really beautiful gray streak in the front—

C: Okay. I’m looking at photos now.

K: —and it’s so cute. It’s so, so cute. She’s very cute.

C: Yes!

K: And they’re just like a really good pair. I remember after the show ended, it was like, oh I wonder what they’re gonna do next. And Clinton went on—he went to be on, or went, you know, after the show ended he was on one of those talk shows, like The Chew or The Dish? One of those daytime talk shows—

C: Yeah. 

K: —with a bunch of… like a panel sitting around talking about, you know, the things of the day, and I guess afterwards it came out that they like … hate each other. And like to the point where they’re like—she’s blocked him on all social medias—

C: Ooh!

K: —and it’s really, really wild, and he’s like, (laughs) I don’t know what I did to like make her mad. And then afterwards, every time they would be in interviews and whatnot, they would just [be] like, oh, I’m not gonna talk about Clinton. Or, I’m not gonna talk about Stacy. (laughs) And it’s just like … what? Why? Like I just wanna know what happened with them, because they seemed like such a great pairing. And honestly, this is one of those things where it’s similar to Joan Crawford and Bette Davis, where it’s like, oh, they have good chemistry on-screen, but that doesn’t necessarily mean—or even the Kim Cattrall thing—it doesn’t mean they’re friendly behind the scenes.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: It’s kind of a bummer, because apparently other people know what the drama was, but—or is—

C: They’re not talking?

K: —but they won’t talk about it, and I’m just like, I wanna know! (laughs) Like I wanna know what the drama is. What is the deal? Like what did he do and like why? Why does she not like him anymore?

C: Well, according to screenrant.com

K: Mm. I wanna hear it.

C: They say, “It has been speculated the sudden conflict stems from Kelly’s memoir, I Hate Everyone Except You”—

K: (laughs) Okay.

C: —“released in January 2017. He wrote, ‘I either adored her or despised her and never anything in between. We spent sixty hours a week in captivity. Trust me when I tell you that that is just too much time to spend with any other human being you didn’t choose of your own free will.”

K: Wow. Okay, and it looks like he went … “In another jaw-dropping line from the book, Clinton wrote that he needed a break from Stacy. ‘There’s a part of me that will love Stacy London forever, and a part of me that would be just fine if I never saw her again for the rest of my life.” (laughs) Oof! He said that Stacy was often craving attention and that it annoyed him. (gasps) Wowee, wee wow. Okay. Well … I get it, then. (laughs) She’s like, oh, I thought we were like chill, and you said all this stuff about me in your book. Maybe we’re not chill? Um … 

C: You know, I had a different reaction when I watched that show, because I remember feeling like they were mean to some of the contestants—

K: But they were mean about the clothes, but not the person.

C: No, they were. There was this one woman—cuz I did not love that show.

K: I loved it.

C: And there was an episode I remember where there was a woman who was obsessed with turtles—

K: (laughing) Okay.

C: —and she collected like anything to do with turtles. She would wear turtle pins, turtle t-shirts, like she had a room devoted to turtles. She needed help. Like this is not a normal thing. This was—

K: Right. It was an obsession.

C: It was … she said that she would do this because she didn’t feel confident in herself to have a conversation with people; to introduce herself and talk. Like she needed … she needed like a piece of flair to start a conversation.

K: (laughs) Right.

C: And I remember the guy, Clinton—

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —sang this song, “She’s a Crazy Turtle Lady.”

K: (laughs) 

C: And I was like, you’re just kind of being a dick, and like this woman is clearly suffering from some pretty bad self-esteem.

K: Right.

C: And I thought he was just like being really flippant and callous, and so I was not impressed.

K: I don’t know. I liked the show. I thought it was fun. I think … you know, there are definitely worse (laughs) makeover shows that have existed, and I felt like that one at the time—cuz there were a ton that were on in like the early 2000’s—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —was one of the more like … cuddlier ones. Again, all reality TV shows are garbage and problematic and like cruel in ways, to sometimes the people that are on the show, and sometimes not. But yeah, I don’t know. I liked it. I thought it was a good show. I thought they had really good chemistry. And I guess I found—I’m glad I brought this up cuz I like (laughing) did not do enough research to be like, what’s the deal? Apparently he wrote something bad about her in his book and she didn’t care for it.

C: He was in captivity! (laughs) 

K: I guess. But yeah. That was one that I cared a lot about when I first found out about it. But not enough to apparently do (laughs) any further research after the fact, so I’m glad I brought it up on the show. 

C: I am too. That’s good! (laughs) 

Toshio, do you have any feuds that you wanted to discuss on the—I’m sure we wouldn’t know about.

T: I mean, of course, but I … I mean, I would tend towards like, I like it when it’s a feud where maybe a couple … if we’re talking Hollywood, the talent takes on the man. (laughs) 

C: Oh, yeah.

T: But we’re not gonna go there. 

C: (laughs) 

T: That’s a little bit too relevant. Not relevant; that’s the wrong word. A little too … this is supposed to be our … our meditation time. 

K & C: (laugh) 

T: This is our time of solace.

C: This is our fun time! 

K: No, I mean we could—

T: Our escapism time.

K: There definitely are ones that I think about like … I don’t know. It’s not necessarily taking on the man, although it kind of is. Cuz there’s one … it’s not really a feud; it’s just like a person made a comment and then everyone got mad about it

C: Ooh!

K: —which is um … Martin Scorsese vs. like Marvel movies? Like superhero movies?

C: Mm.

T: Oh. Yeah.

K: Because Martin Scorsese was basically like, this isn’t … they’re not cinema. They’re just like, roller coaster rides (laughs), like they’re not real movies or whatever, and people got so mad at him about that, and I’m like, if you wanna get mad at Martin Scorsese, that’s fine, but he’s right. Like they’re not … you know, they’re not high cinema. They’re movies you go to that you … are fun because they’re bright and there’s a lot of action and they never end, cuz there’s like a million of them—

C: Yeah.

T: I know.

K: —and they’re just gonna keep [inaudible] for decades and decades. But that was one of my favorite ones, because it was like—even though Martin Scorsese is … I mean I think we think of him now, in 2021, as like, the establishment, because he’s like, won Oscars, and—

C: Made the same movie a thousand times?

K: But the thing about him is, though, he can get that movie made, right? He can just show up and be like, I wanna make this movie. I wanna make a ten-part documentary with Fran Liebow[itz]—or Fran … not Fran Liebowitz. Is Liebowitz her last name?

C: Yeah?

T: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

K: Yeah. He wants to make a ten-part documentary on Netflix with Fran Liebowitz; he can do that. He wants to make like a weird like fifteenth-century movie about monks, he can get the money to do that. Like he is the establishment.

C: Right.

K: But like in a different way than whatever studios own Marvel and make those movies. And so it’s really interesting to be someone who’s so entrenched and powerful. Cuz no one else can say that, right? (laughs) No one else can say like, hey, these movies are … they’re swallowing … like they’re basically taking up all of the oxygen from anything else that could get created. It’s not wrong for him to say that, cuz it’s true. 

T: Yeah, and for people to actually listen.

K: Right.

T: And then part of the point I think he was making was like, there was a time when you could get movies that were more like, I guess mid-range in terms of budgets.

K: And I mean it’s not even that long ago either, like if you think about in the 90’s, you could go to see a movie like As Good As It Gets and also like a Jurassic Park, or a, you know, super huge-budget action movie. But there were rom-coms still, and teen movies still, and like that doesn’t exist anymore. (laughs) Like you either have like giant—

T: Right. A hundred million thousand trillion budget—

K: Or you have indie movies.

T: Right.

K: Those are the two things that exist, and everything else has been pushed to like streaming services and whatnot.

T: It’s like the middle class in the US.

K: Exactly! (laughs) 

C: Nonexistent.

T: (laughs) 

K: They’re the extremes. There’s only—nothing exists in the center. And I … I don’t know, I kind of liked when he said that, cuz I was like, personally, I was like this is true. (laughs) 

C: Yeah.

K: What’s bad about what he’s saying? He’s not saying that it’s bad for you to like this; he’s just saying that it’s definitely having an effect on what we get to see. 

T: Right.

K: Because if these are the only movies that get made, like that’s not good (laughs) to have so little variety. But yeah, that’s one I think is kind of like, person taking on the man. Even though he is the man, he’s also taking on a different man. Because—

C: Man vs. man.

T: Yeah.

K: Yeah. We need different movies, guys. Everything can’t be Marvel or like some fourth iteration of a franchise. It’s just … it’s too much.

T: Ugh. I agree. Agree. I would say, kind of in that vein, then … I’ll just go for it.

C: Do it!

T: I mean, more recently, there’s no video footage that we know of yet of Janet Mock callin out Ryan Murphy

K: (laughs) Oh my gosh, yeah.

C: Oh, yes. So, so so good!

K: Speaking of him.

T: Of Bette and Joan! Yeah, from earlier. Which I also enjoyed and Ryan Murphy produced.

K: Mm-hmm.

T: So he is like one of these like A-Gays. 

K: (laughs) 

T: These, you know, white gays that (sighs) rule, you know—

C: Hollyweird.

T: —certain castles of, yeah. (laughs) Hollyweird. 

K: Literally had a show called Hollywood. (laughs) Like that was the whole name. 

T: Right. Exactly. And he I guess must have, you know, seen this Black trans woman thing blowin up—

C: Uh-huh.

T: —and he got a lot of mileage off of it. 

K: Yeah.

T: And so he was making a lot more money than Janet Mock, who was, it seems like, doing a lot of the work, while—I mean, what, Ryan Murphy’s got like what, like ten projects goin on at any given time—

K: Right.

T: He’s got, you know, these big flagships, like American Horror Story

K: Mm-hmm.

T: —and some … I don’t know. The first big hit was Glee, I guess? But yeah, he has so many—

K: He also did Popular, didn’t he? He did Popular, I think, too.

T: Ooh, on the CW?

K: Yeah.

C: I didn’t know that.

K: I’m pretty sure.

T: I love to hear that. 

K & C: (laugh)

T: I could go in—yeah, we should … I would love to talk about Melissa Etheridge and her ex. That was, uh—

K: (laughs) What a time.

C: Yes. I would love to talk about that too at some point. 

K: I can’t believe that—what a weird … okay. Pairing. (laughs) 

T: That … that’s maybe an aside that is too out there. But yeah, so Janet Mock … this is kinda recently—

C: So she was brought on for Pose

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —as a writer? Is that right?

T: Yeah, and producer—

K: And director, too.

T: Director.

C: And director? Okay.

K: Yeah.

T: Yeah, because they were like, this is not a good look. 

C: Right. (laughs) 

K: Yup.

T: Like we have this show where we’re like, just fully using people—

K: It’s all brown and Black queer and trans people—

C: Trans people.

K: —and everyone behind the scenes is white—

C: By Ryan Murphy!

K: —and like cis. Yeah. Not great. 

T: And ultimately, who’s gonna benefit the most? Ryan Murphy.

C: Mm-hmm.

T: And so Janet Mock came out and she was … it was at the Pose 3 launch party. and I don’t know if they made them leave their phones at the door—

K: Oof.

T: —like … you know, a Kardashian wedding or something like that—

C: Yeah. (laughs) 

K: (laughs) 

T: —because footage has not leaked just yet. But yeah, things got messy. I’m sure that … I mean, all of these people are in these super stressful jobs; they’re—and Janet Mock specifically; she’s, you know, basically been—you know, had to be this face, and uplift Ryan Murphy while trying to keep it together. And like, you know, the media kind of looks to her for … like she gets to decide in Time 100, for example—

K: Mm.

T: —like Time 100’s Most Important People of the Year, she’s always the person that decides the trans person of the year.

K: Mm-hmm.

T: She was like, I got … you know, why am I making $40,000? She stood up at this Pose launch party and … this is in comparison to Ryan Murphy, who probably has nothing to do with the show at this point.

K & C: Right.

T: Cuz he’s probably workin on … yeah, Hollywood or whatever other projects he’s on. And basically callin him out for bein like, why are … you know. There should be some pay parity— P-A-R-I-T-Y—

K: (laughs) Clarify that.

C: (laughs) 

T: —because yeah, I mean, she’s doing all of the heavy lifting—

K: Mm-hmm. 

T: —and she’s got a bigass Ryan Murphy on her shoulder. It sounds like he was not giving her the kind of, you know, backup that someone should get in that situation. Especially if you’re in an industry that eats people alive. 

K: Mm. Mm-hmm. It’s unfair because like you were saying, Janet Mock already has the—it’s not a burden, but she already has the responsibility of being the most sort of visible—I think it’s like her and Laverne Cox, right, the most visible trans women—trans Black women in Hollywood. So she already has that responsibility, and now she sort of like has the responsibility of you know, being the person people look to in the media about this show, which he’s getting paid the most money for because his name is on it, but she’s constantly having to like, do interviews and do all this other stuff. And also produce and write and direct—

T: Yeah. 

K: —and it’s like, uh, I’m doing everything and you’re not doing that much.

T: Yeah!

K: What’s the—(laughs). How do we—

T: I know!

K: —get to some like balance here, because I’m already—you know I already have a lot on my plate outside of this show even existing at all.

T: Totally. Yeah. And then kind of in the same vein, Andy Cohen

K: (laughs) 

T: I’m sure they’re friends, he and Ryan Murphy, but he is famously kind of a woman-hater.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: (laughs) 

T: For being the showrunner and creator of so many shows where it’s like about women being toxic to each other.

C: Right.

T: He kind of enables that in the work that he does, and I’m not saying that I don’t enjoy some of that work. But (laughs) you know, when he … when he threw Kathy Griffin to the curb

C: Mm.

K: Oh, yeah.

T: Anderson Cooper as well.

K: Yep.

T: She got cut from hosting one of the … the most popular New Year’s Eve shows.

C: Right.

T: God, those shows are so depressing.

C: (laughs) 

K: (laughing They’re so bad.

T: (laughs) I know.

K: They’re so bad! It’s wild that they still exist considering all of the other things people have available to watch at any given time.

T: Totally.

K: It’s like, (laughing) no one wants this—

T: No. And—

K: And yet you still do it.

T: Yeah. I think … I mean, Kathy Griffin was like, tryin her hardest on that show on CNN when she was there, and then Andy Cohen took her place after she I guess made this gaffe that is not a gaffe in my mind.

K: I don’t think so either, but … 

T: Yeah! She did … she did like a little photo shoot that she knew was gonna go viral, where it was like—

C: Holding up Trump’s head.

K: Mm-hmm.

T: Yeah, Trump’s head that had … you know, just been guillotined.

C: Right.

K: Yeah. It was clearly like a dummy and it’s … everyone’s supposed to infer that it looks like Trump, and it was not like real.

T: She’s a comedian!

C: Right. Who cares?

K: Yeah, exactly.

C: Who cares?

T: She’s a comedian. 

K: It’s not even a thing, but of course, it had to become a thing.

T: I mean, it probably would have saved millions of lives—

C: Yeah!

T: —if Kathy Griffin had been able to get to him at that point. (laughs) 

C: (laughs) Right.

T: But yeah, that was another case where like I saw the most recent Kathy Griffin documentary, and I mean, in all these cases it’s a little bit like, well, you got a lot of money, like potentially … then again, that doesn’t necessarily mean … it doesn’t equal happiness; it doesn’t mean that you have people around you who are … they have your best interests at heart. 

K: Mm-hmm.

T: Britney Spears comes to mind.

K: Oof. Britney.

T: But yeah, I mean the entire documentary, it’s kind of a … I don’t know. I guess it’s supposed to be uplifting, but it’s kind of a downer. 

K: (laughs)

T: She’s … you know, she’s crying; she can’t sleep because she’s like constantly getting death threats—

C: Oh my god.

K: I mean, literally, people wanted her to like … end. (laughs) Like people wanted to not only for her to not be able to work ever again—

T: Right.

K: They wanted to like … people who were so angry about this supposed violence wanted to enact more violence on her. 

T: Right! Right, right.

K: And it’s like, what are you really mad about? 

T: Yeah. 

K: Cuz that’s literally not what you’re mad about. you’re just mad that somebody said something not flattering towards Trump, and now you’re like, oh that shouldn’t be allowed to stand.

T: Yeah!

K: It’s like, you hear the things he says about people constantly? (laughs) Like he’s—

T: I know! And he’s not a comedian.

K: —never not saying horrible things about people. And he means them! Like they are not …

C & T: (laugh)

K: He’s supposed to be like, oh, the leader of the free world, and everyone’s like supposed to respect him. It’s like what are you even talking about right now?

T: They have repercussions that Kathy Griffin—who at that point, I know she had a show on Bravo once upon a time, which Andy Cohen was … you know, had something to do with. Maybe producer; I’m not sure if that was his title. But he, as well as Anderson—this, you know, gay Glitterati and mafia—dropped her, and there’s like a scene where some like paparazzi or reporters like … catches Andy Cohen at … maybe it’s LAX—

C: Mm-hmm.

T: —and is asked about Kathy Griffin—

C: What does he say? Yup.

K: Oh no.

T: And he’s like … he tries to pull a Mariah.

C: Yup. 

T: He’s like, who?

K: So fucked up. (laughs) 

T: And he doesn’t have Mariahs’ gravitas.

C: No! And then he says, “I don’t know her.”

T: Yeah! Yeah, yeah, yeah. 

K: (groans)

T: He quotes her, and it’s not (laughs) … it’s not funny.

C: It’s not cute, Andy.

T: It’s not cute. I think she—

K: It’s really just like because like it’s bad for his brand. Like it’s not because he necessarily—I don’t know how he feels about Trump. Maybe he’s pro-Trump. I don’t know his politics.

T: Who knows, yeah.

K; But like it’s really just because you don’t want the blowback that she’s getting.

T: Right.

K: But like, that’s supposedly your friend, and you care about her or whatever, but it’s like, it’s too hot. You know, the heat’s too hot. I gotta separate from this. It’s just like really horrible. (laughs) 

T: And then he falls into like, maybe one of the most watched telecasts—

K: Right, right. 

T: —the New Year’s Eve telecast, because she gets cut.

C: Ugh.

K: Ugh. Gross. 

So now it’s time for Two Cents, No Tax. And I am just going to, as we do every episode, I’m gonna throw some topics out there for Caitlin, and I wanna get her quick, sort of high-level take on each of these … it could be items; it could be people; it could be clothing, food, whatever. I usually try to have a range, so I’m interested to see how you’re gonna … how you feel about this group of Two Cents, No Tax topics.

C: Awesome!

K: Here we go. Okay. My first one—it’s come up a lot on the show in various ways, but I’m interested to know how you feel about SNL.

C: (gasps) Oh! At first I thought you were gonna say S&M.

K: (laughs) I mean, we could go there. I don’t wanna get to personal, but—

C: I was like, wow, alright!

K: (laughs) Saturday Night Live, I mean.

C: Yeah. Um, here is what I think. I mean, obviously Toshio’s boyfriend is on it, Bowen, so I love it for that reason. I do love Bowen, and I’m so happy he is on there. I love to see a gay Asian man on primetime. I love that so much. I guess I have a lot of mixed feelings, cuz it’s like, what are you really expecting from this, you know, primetime show, this comedy show that is geared toward mainstream audiences? And it can be very hit-or-miss a lotta times—like when it’s bad, it’s so bad.

K: (laughs) 

C: But they can be funny. I wish that it weren’t so tied into like news of the week, because if you watch an old episode, they’ll be so referential to things that time passes and you have no idea what was going on. Like what was that reference? I have no idea. 

K: Yeah. Especially if you were young when that episode aired—

C: Yeah.

K: —you’d be just like, I don’t … this is like 1989. I don’t … I was six years old. (laughs) Like I can’t relate to anything that’s happening right now.

C: Yeah. And I guess I’m talking about more even just now, like yeah if you go back a few years it’s like, I have no idea what this is. Yeah, iconic moments, like the Ashlee Simpson moment

K: Oh my god. I was watching that live. I could not believe that happened.

C: Oh my gosh. The Sinead moment

K: Oh, yeah! Yeah.

C: —where, Sinead was right.

K: That’s what’s so frustrating about that! (laughs) 

C: Sinead was right, and Sinead—that almost ended her career, and Sinead was right. So suck on that.

K: Lorne Michaels? (laughs) 

C: Oh, fuck Lorne Michaels. And I—ugh. Pete Davidson is like disgusting—

K What is his deal? Why do people like care about what he does? Get outta here.

C: —and Colin Jost is just blech. And Michael Che seems to hate Black women for some reason. I don’t get it.

K: I get it. (laughs) I understand.

C: Well I mean, I get it. it’s just like … it’s so disappointing.

K: It’s certainly a type.

C: So I guess I have a lot of mixed feelings about it.

K: Okay.

C: Like it seems like everyone seems to. I mean, I don’t know anyone who’s like, god I love this so much.

K: (laughs) It’s true.

C: You know? It’s just like—

K: They definitely are the same type as you, where you’re like I like this performer, or I like this recurring sketch or whatever—

C: Right.

K: It’s never like, oh I love SNL as a fully formed show. Like no. No one does.

C: Like there are some truly talented people on there.

K: (laughs) 

C: (laughs) Yeah, “Dick in a Box.” Lonely Island. I love [inaudible]—

K: (laughs)Lazy Sunday,” yeah. Everything they brought to the show was incredible. Yeah.

C: Right. And there are certain people where I’m like, oh I’m so—they did a show about Pride—sorry, not a show—a sketch about Pride other day that I thought was so brilliant, and it’s all about the sort of corporate takeover of Pride—

K: Oh! Is it … right? Yeah.

C: —and like straight people being there, and I mean it was really just spot-on to what Pride has kind of … devolved into. I mean … we all know it. The police are there.

K: Ugh. Get out of Pride. Um, how do you feel about lip gloss?

C: Oh! You mean the song by Lil Mama?

K: I mean, the song too, but also the item. (laughs) The song is good. We can agree on that.

C: Why not? You know? Put a little … put a little gloss on those lips. I don’t really wear it. You know, before COVID, the only makeup I would really wear would be like a bold lip. 


C: Cuz that’s all I need on this beautiful face. Just a bold lip.

K: Jealous! (laughs) 

C: Yeah. And now I don’t do that, cuz it just rubs off [inaudible] the mask, so I’m naked.

K: Oh yeah! Masks. That’s right. (laughs) I was like, why? That makes sense.

C: But I mean, I’ll wear lip gloss. Do you have a brand you like?

K: No, I just know people feel very strongly either for it or against it. I know—I think people think of it—

C: Do they?

K: I think, at least in my opinion, people seem to think of it as like, it’s for young people. Like it’s for, you know, girls or people who are just getting started with makeup. You don’t—I feel like people do wear it, but it’s not sort of thought of as very mature. Right? Like if you wear … if you’re an adult woman and you want something on your lips, it’s lipstick. But it’s just like, I don’t—I don’t like … I don’t like many things on my lips, and I’m not really a huge gloss person—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —cuz I have (laughs) very oily skin, and I’m like, I don’t need my skin and my lips to be shiny. Like that’s too much (laughs). But yeah, I don’t know. I think people have like complicated relationships to it. Also it like … if you get some that’s really cheap, it is gross, and like if you have long hair, then your hair gets stuck in it—

C: Yeah.

K: —and it’s a whole thing so … I don’t know. I’m just interested. I’m not a lip stuff person in general, gloss or lipstick, so … I don’t really have a dog in this fight.

C: (laughs) 

K: Oh, and also, Toshio says, “Petroleum is in all of it.” Which is not wrong. (laughs) 

C: Mm.

K: But yeah. I feel like it’s fine, but I think it is a thing that’s for kids, but that might just be a me thing. 

C: No, I think you’re probably right. I mean I haven’t worn it since I was a teen—

K: Yeah, exactly.

C: —so like, at least five years ago.

K: (laughs) We all know, we’re all twenty-one years old. (laughing) Can you imagine being born in the year 2000? What an insane—

C: No!

K: (laughing) What an insane … oh my god. Okay. So my next one—we kinda touched on it a little bit when I sort of mentioned Martin Scorsese vs. Marvel fans—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —but how do you feel about the MCU in general?

C: What is that?

K: The Marvel Cinematic Universe.

C: Oh! (laughs) 

K: Like all of those movies, and how they connect and everything. (sniffs)

C: Well clearly, I know a lot about it. (laughs) 

K: (laughing) I know! You don’t even know what it is.

C: Wait, so which ones—you’ll have to tell me which ones the Marvels are.

K: So MCU is like Captain America

C: (groans)

K: —Thor, Iron Man, Avengers, Spider-Man, Black Panther.

C: So I’ve seen none of those. I’ve seen Black Panther, and that is it.

K: Okay.

C: I’ve seen four Marvel movies (laughing) out of like twenty-five or something. 

K: I only—the first two that I’ve seen, I only saw those because I was in Seattle for an internship one summer and I didn’t know anyone, and so (laughs) the only thing to do at the beginning when I first got there was go to the movies on the weekend.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: So I saw the first Captain America and the first Thor, and then I didn’t see another one until Black Panther, which was like ten years later or something.

C: Yeah. Maybe I’ve seen Thor. I don’t know, though. If I did, I have no memory of it.

K: It’s not worth it.

C: So when you were in Seattle, did you go to the first Starbucks, cuz that’s something you could have done.

K: I don’t drink coffee, so no. (laughs) I only went to places that were cool, like I went to look at the Sub Pop offices and be like, hmm.

C: Nice.

K: Okay. That’s  a thing.

C: Did you take a little like singles tour?

K: No. The only place I went that I really liked that was music-related, aside from that—and also the Capitol Hill Block Party, which I was there for, which is like a big festival they have in the summer there in the Capitol Hill neighborhood. I went to … it’s called something different now, but at the time when I was there it was called the Experience Music Project, and it—

C: Yeah! Yeah, the museum?

K: Museum, yeah! It’s called something else now

C: Oh!

K: It’s called like pop something … pop … I don’t know. But I went to that, and at the time I didn’t know they had that exhibit—this exhibit—but it’s like this Nirvana exhibit, and so they had like a ton of Nirvana stuff. It was basically like half of the museum was all of this Nirvana memorabilia. And you sort of … you know, when you go to a museum, obviously they sort of … the way that the exhibit is laid out, it kind of guides you in a certain way and along a certain path. And so you were basically going through the history of the band, and at one point probably the biggest display was … they had Kurt Cobain’s entire outfit from the “Smells Like Teen Spirit” video—

C: Mm.

K: And so there was like all this—it was really cool. That was probably my favorite music-related thing that I did. And they had this whole area where you listened to like oral histories from a bunch of pop culture people, like Steven Spielberg and Octavia Butler and a bunch of other music people, and that was really awesome. But yeah, no, that was the only thing I did in Seattle. (laughs) And work. Those are the things that I did, cuz I didn’t really know that many people. Okay. What was—how did we even get on that topic? Oh, cuz I asked about the MCU.

C: (laughing) Yeah. 

K: Yeah, no. I have—like I said, I’ve only seen four of those movies, so we’re basically in the same boat.

K: Okay, my last one—these two are like … how many was that? Is this three?

C: Three, I think?

K: Okay, this’ll be my last one, and I always try to end with a food one. 

C: Yeah!

K: How do you feel about lobster?

C: I know I have eaten it. 

K: (laughs) 

C: I don’t remember. Like pretty much 99% of what I discuss on this show, I don’t remember it. 

K:  (laughs) 

C: So do I like it? Maybe. It seems like I would. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: I know it’s—seems like a lotta trouble to eat, though. Like what you get from having to break their little claws, and break open their bodies—

K: (laughing) Caitlin, you are not making it sound appetizing at all. Yeah, that’s really funny.

C: Toshio says the audio part of the experience is gross. Yeah.

K: It’s intense. The cracking is not great, I agree. 

C: Crack open their bodies and suck it out.

K: Okay. Wow. (laughs) Um, okay we know your opinion about lobster and you’re like, it’s probably okay. I don’t remember.

C: It’s probably fine.

K: Those are all my Two Cents, No Tax! Obviously I have more, but—

C: Those are good.

K: I just realized one feud that we didn’t even talk about, and I’m shocked we didn’t talk about it—

C: What?

K: —is Naomi vs. Tyra

C: You know, when I was doing research—

K: (laughs) 

C: That actually did cross my mind—

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —cuz I was doing research yesterday on feuds and just like, hmm, what are some of my favorites? That is a good one, and we could … we could—

K: I mean, we don’t have to. It just literally like—I don’t know why it crossed my mind when I was thinking about like (laughs)— 

C: It’s a good one and, you know, Naomi has had her fair share of feuds. I mean—

K: Oh yeah, she’s another one.

C: And she … there was a shirt that was going around in the 2000’s—this was, you know, during when Naomi was—had a reputation for like throwing phones at her assistant, which she did on many occasions. And there was a shirt that Miss J. Alexander from ANTM [America’s Next Top Model] wore, and on the front it said “Naomi hit me,” and on the back it said, “and I loved it.”

K: Right.

C: (laughs) 

K: Oh, what a time. The 2000’s. (laughs) 

C: I know.

K: We put everything we cared about on a shirt.

C: I wanna bring that back.

K: (laughs) I mean, I think it’s back. I think I just don’t go shopping on those t-shirt sites as much as I probably did when I was like nineteen or whatever.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Yeah. That’s all my Two Cents, No Tax topics. Thank you for that.

C: Well, wonderful! Thank you. And I guess now, we’ll move along to what we are … I guess recommending, or listening to, or reading, or listening to! Maybe I just said that again.

K: Twice! (laughs) 

C: This week—twice is nice. You can tell I haven’t been sleeping well, but what are you up to this week?

K: Um, you know, I haven’t been watching or listening to as much stuff as I want to. I think one of the things we already touched on, which was the movie Together Together

C: Right. Patti Harrison!

K: —with Patti Harrison and Ed Helms, which is so sweet. I finally watched it, and it was just adorable. But also it did not lose Patti Harrison’s like weird energy. It’s somehow still captured, which … I don’t know how they did it, but it’s great. They did a really wonderful job. But no, the other thing I’ve been watching, which is kind of popular right now, or people are talking a lot about it, is the show Hacks. But so the premise is Jean Smart plays—she’s clearly modeled on Joan Rivers.

C: Mm. Mm-hmm.

K: This sort of comedian who’s been in the game for like decades and decades, since the sixties, and she’s like very wealthy; very popular. She has like a Vegas residency and an amazing mansion. And the show—essentially the premise is that she’s working out of this casino and the casino owner wants to take Fridays and Saturdays away from her to give them to sort of younger—to attract a younger, more … just a younger demographic of audience—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —with different acts. And she’s like really upset about this, cuz she’s like, uh, I’m an institution in Vegas, and in general—

C: (laughs) 

K: —like, why would you take away my shows? And so her manager is like, you know, maybe this is a good time for you to sort of modernize your act, like maybe get some writers in there to help you come up with better material—or not better, but you know, more current material, right? So you can show the owner, like hey, I too am sort of trying to evolve and, you know, bring in a different demographic. And so she ends up getting set up with this other writer, this other female writer from LA, who’s the opposite of her in every way. She’s like twenty-five; she’s super young, and she’s one of those … she’s like an obnoxious comedy type. (laughs) I don’t know how to describe her in that she’s very sort of concerned with social … you know, SJW stuff, but she’s also just kind of a bad person to everyone in her life. And so she basically has gotten … they don’t say “cancelled” in the show, which I’m so happy about, like they don’t go into like cancel culture or whatever. But she’s basically gotten in trouble for this tweet that she did, and no one wants to hire her. And so her manager is the same manager as the Jean Smart character, and he’s like, well we’ll just put you two together for this time being, cuz you need the money. And the movie—the show’s basically about them trying to … you know, learn from each other. They’re from different generations, not just of women, but also of women comedians—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and they’re trying to learn to see eye-to-eye, and it’s just really … it’s really fun, and sometimes it zigs when you expect it to zag, and I really like that about it. And Jean Smart is just crushing it as the Joan Rivers type.

C: Ugh! She’s so good.

K: She’s killing it. Like just her entire wardrobe (laughs) … she’s actually pretty good at delivering jokes, you know? A lot of times—

C: I don’t doubt it! She’s so talented.

K: I mean she’s been doing comedy for like thirty-five years or something; it’s not like it’s new to her or whatever. But sometimes when there’s a show about how someone is very good at a particular artistic craft, the show is really bad at depicting that—

C: Mm-hmm. 

K: —or depicting it in a way that’s believable. But when she’s onstage telling jokes, you’re like, no I could totally see her up there doing this kind of Joan Rivers-style comedy. You know? It’s a really good show and super easy to watch. I wouldn’t say it’s super duper laugh-out-loud funny, but it’s incredibly clever, and I just like the dynamic. Just watching it I’m like, I could watch like twenty thousand episodes of this show. It’s just super easy to take in. But yeah, Hacks on HBO Max. It’s really good. I think there are six episodes out now, and I think four more, so … 

C: I’m jealous. I really wanna watch that. What I would say I wanted to discuss; what I have been … god, I can never think of anything other than the word ingest, but 

K: (laughs) What are you enjoying?

C: I am devouring … I have devoured Chelsea Devantez’s podcast Celebrity Book Club

K: Mm-hmm. Yeah.

C: —with Chelsea Devantez. So it’s where she reads celebrity memoirs and then has a guest who has also read the book and then they discuss them … I think she’s had like two seasons already of it, and I listened—I binged it this week at work. I just had it on and I listened to the Mariah episode. I listened to—she reads Kim Cattrall’s book, so this is like right on time—

K: Right. (laughs) 

C: —which is perfect. I listened to that. And I’m someone who really loves memoirs, so if you like memoirs, I think you’ll enjoy it. I enjoy it too, just because I think Chelsea is … a really interesting person; she’s very funny; she has a lotta insights into the books. She’s not like flippant or dismissive about it, like oh, you know, it’s just a—like it’s empowering in a way, I would say, because she’s reading these books of these women who—she’ll be like, like they read the Demi Moore memoir, and before she read it she’s like … oh, Toshio just says, you just described yourselves! We love you!

K: (laughs) Cute. Cute.

C: So before she read Demi’s book, she’s like you know, I really wasn’t a fan, and I thought she kind of gave off this “skinny-girl energy,” (laughs) she was talking about with Demi—

K: (laughs) Interesting! 

C: Yeah. And then you read Demi’s book and I had—I haven’t actually read it, but it has been on my list just because I had read sort of about the book and some of the things she went through as a child and then later on in her life, with like Ashton Kutcher—who I cannot stand—and things that happened there, and it was so intense. Her relationship with her mother … so intense. I don’t even wanna get into it, cuz it’s so traumatic, but anyway.

K: Wow, this is interesting! I wonder like if maybe Chelsea Devantez is a bit, maybe significantly, younger than I … than we are? I feel like she’s not, but—

C: I feel like she’s in her younger thirties, probably.

K: Yeah. I feel like that—

C: I feel like she’s about our age.

K: But see, I feel like people who are our age remember sort of all of the stuff that Demi Moore went through in the media in the 90’s.

C: Mm.

K: She got a lot of garbage for not really any reason. 

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: And the stuff about her mom, I remember … I’ve never really been … I can’t say that I’m a Demi Moore expert or anything, but even I knew that she had like a really bad (laughing) relationship with her mother, and like … yeah I never thought she gave off skinny-girl energy, because I know she was kinda bullied about her body. Especially when she was pregnant and stuff, and right after, cuz she basically had like a kid a year (laughs) for like four years or something. 

C: Yeah.

K: But yeah so it’s interesting to me I remember when—I loved the movie A Few Good Men, and that movie came out in what, 1993 or 2, and I remember people being so cruel to her in that movie.

C: Yes.

K: Because she just like … I think she filmed it like six weeks after giving birth or whatever, and everyone was so mean about her body. And you go and watch that movie and you’re like, she looks like a regular (laughs) … she looks like a regular person. Like I don’t see the problem. 

C: Right.

K: So it’s interesting that like Chelsea felt like she had skinny-girl energy. And maybe she does, but it’s probably cuz of how badly she was treated when she was like a young actress.

C: Yeah. Oh my goodness. 

K: Anyways, that’s interesting.

C: Yeah. but the podcast is really good. It’s called Celebrity Book Club with Chelsea Devantez. Oh, before we go, we do need to shout out Sam Fragoso.

K: Sam! Yes.

C: Hi Sam!

K: Hi Sam.

C: Thank you for supporting our podcast, and like I said on Twitter, a lot of people know him from his podcast, Talk Easy. They did not know he’s a world champion bull rider and a master theremin player.

K: (laughs) So funny.

C: So thank you so much for—we have the most talented fans. It just blows my mind.

K: It’s so funny. If you know Sam and you listen to his podcast, you know he’s like the most gentle person. The idea of him—

C: Which is why you would not suspect that he can ride bulls! It is incredible. 

K: I know! Exactly. It’s just—it’s a hidden talent, you know? Still waters run deep. (laughs)

C: That’s so true. So true, Krystal. 

K: (laughing) Oh, man.

C: If you would like to support our podcast, please do so! You can go to our Patreon, patreon.com/TwoCentsPlusTax, and that will help us with our transcript costs and website costs, and you will get a shoutout tailored just for you! 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: And also, go to our Instagram and TwitterTwoCentsPlusTax—why don’t ya?

K: Yeah! Same. Same. Also you can follow me on Twitter if you want to. I’m @humblecore. Don’t do that though. I’m bad at Twitter right now.

C: No!

K: I have to get better, and then we’ll check in again. (laughs)

C: How dare you? 

K: Yeah, no. I mean … you know, you go through cycles. But yeah, thank you everyone for supporting and listening.

C: I know.

K: We greatly appreciate it. 

C: We really do.

K: It’s awesome.

C: We really do. Um, let’s see. I don’t really have any final words. I hope everyone has a safe Mercury retrograde period. Check your—

K: Oh god. Is that starting? 

C: (sighs) Dude, yeah.

K: Oh, no. (laughs)

C: Check your data. I restarted the computer before we did this cuz I was like, I know zoom is not gonna work today. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: Luckily it did. But yeah. Back up your data. Take a breath before you respond. This is something I’m telling myself. 

K: Oh, that’s smart. 

C: Yeah. Communication snafus … I am expecting them.

K: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. I don’t have any advice. My advice is it’s not time for it yet, but like … get a new toothbrush. We’re not at new toothbrush day yet, but we’re almost there.

C: Mm. Yeah, wait! Isn’t it tomorrow? 

K: No, it’s July 1st. 

C: July 1st. Okay.

K: July 1st, yeah. Well, we can get into it another time, but yeah. If you haven’t changed your toothbrush in more than three months, then do that, because it’s bad. (laughs) So.

C: It is bad. 

K: Yeah.

C: Someone wants an episode or an explanation of that, but we may do that on the—

K: We can definitely get to it in our Q & A episode. Yeah.

C Yeah. Yeah, we’ll do that, so. Yeah! Again, still taking questions for Q & A, so hit us up!

K: Yeah!

C: Okay! Well, until next time. I’m going to say goodbye.

K: Bye everyone!

C: Bye!

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