Episode 11: Allegedly! Allegedly!

Two Cents Plus Tax

Episode Eleven: “Allegedly! Allegedly!”


Transcript has been lightly edited for readability.

(theme song plays)

K: I’m Krystal.

C: I’m Caitlin.

K: And this is …

K & C: Two Cents Plus Tax!

C: Welcome back!

K: Yay! Am I on? Am I here? Can you hear me?

C: I can hear you. Toshio, can we hear you?

Toshio: Hello.

C: Hello.

K: Wow. (laughs) That was very, like … sultry.

C: (laughs) What if we just started doing our most sultry voices—

K: Yeah. I—I don’t have that.

C: —the whole episode?

K: (clears throat) My voice is too—it’s not … I don’t know. I can’t make it sound sultry.

C: Oh. Hard disagree.

K: Unless I go deep, like … yeah. It sounds awkward. We’ll have to practice.

C: (laughs) So, we were just having a really interesting conversation off-mic—

K & C: (laugh) 

C: Everyone is having something going on. 

K: Yeah.

C: Uh, it’s been a real interesting day.

K: An interesting day. Interesting week. Uh, yeah.

C: Interesting few weeks for some of us. 

K: Yeah. Mm-hmm.

C: We have a lot to discuss. 

K: I mean, we do. We always do, but like (laughs)

C: We always do!

K: I think—so the topic today that we are talking about—I think because we had an episode about crying, we’re trying to follow those both—you know, that episode up with things that are (laughing) a little bit more like … potentially upbeat and fun, and not as deep or serious. So we had the episode about parties last week, and now —

C: Mm-hmm. That was a huge success, too. That was our biggest episode. We wanted to follow up with some fun topics. We did our landmark episode about parties

K: (laughs) Landmark. It was groundbreaking. 

C: It was groundbreaking. Anyone who’s anyone is talking about it, which brings us to—

K: I mean, it’s all over the place, yeah.

C: Which brings us to this week! Because there was so much chatter on the internet about last week’s episode, about parties, we thought it would only be natural to follow that up with a discussion about gossip.

K: Flawless segue. That was incredible. (laughs) 

C: Thank you! 

K: I mean, I saw it coming from really far away, but I was like, she’s going for it and I like it. 

C: (laughs) Thank you.

K: Yeah, no, gossip. So … I feel very, um—I think people … maybe we can just jump into it.

C: Sure!

K: But I think people generally, when they think of gossip, they always think of it with like a negative connotation.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: And I don’t necessarily think of it that way. Like I think gossip is just like talking about stuff, or people who are not around at the moment, or that you don’t know, and it doesn’t always have to be bad things. 

C: Correct. Yeah.

K: Like at least that’s the way I sort of envision it. So I remember there was like a—maybe this was a couple months ago—but there was a tweet going around saying that gossip is inherently negative, and people who gossip are like … I don’t know, toxic. You know all these internet words that people use on social media. (laughs)

C: Mm-hmm. Right.

K: Problematic and toxic and whatever. And I was just like, I don’t … maybe I am toxic and problematic (laughs), cuz I don’t necessarily think of it that way! But is that … when you think of gossip, how do you sort of envision it as a topic? 

C: You know, it’s funny cuz I was listening to Jessica Lanyadoo, who I talk about basically every week on our podcast, but—

K: (laughs) 

C: I was listening to her podcast, Ghost of a Podcast, and she was mentioning an upcoming astrological transit that was happening this weekend! Like this is a very … this transit is kind of where a lot of gossip takes place. 

K: Mm-hmm.

C: And she said “Everyone loves to gossip. No one wants to be gossiped about.” And I thought that was a pretty good descriptor. Do I enjoy gossip? Yes, I do. Very much. Do I want anyone to gossip about me? Not really.

K: But I don’t know! Why not? Cuz to me, I—

C: Cuz I think I do have that connotation, where I’m like, oh, it’s gonna be negative. 

K: Yeah, exactly.

C: But that’s also just me, with, you know, an anxiety disorder too. I think like everything is gonna be terrible.

K: (laughs) I think that’s generally how people think of it, though. I think that they imagine that gossip means like saying something mean—

C: Negative.

K: —or cruel about people behind their backs, and it’s like, well I think that’s what we sort of developed it to mean, but it doesn’t have to mean that. And I think most of the time when people are gossiping, they’re doing it but they don’t even know it’s gossip because it’s not negative. Right? 

C: Right.

K: So if we just like … for example, I get on this podcast all the time and talk about stuff that my sister has done or my mom has done or whatever (laughs)

C: Right.

K: —that’s not negative or bad; it’s just me talking about them and they’re not here to know that I’m doing it.

C: Does that constitute gossip?

K: I think it does!

C: Does it?

K: Cuz they’re not here, and you’re saying like, oh here’s what they did or said, or how they feel or probably feel or whatever, and it’s like, they aren’t here to (laughs) actually give their take or say like, yes that’s true or not true, or yes that happened or didn’t happen, which … why would I lie about stuff they didn’t do? That makes no sense. (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

K: But like, you know what I mean? 

C: Yeah.

K: I think we have a very fixed idea of what gossip is, but I think it can be … I think it doesn’t have to be inherently negative.

C: Right. There can be a broader definition of what gossip is.

K: Yeah.

C: I do love gossip. I love low-stakes—

K: Of course.

C: Yeah. Of course I do. You know me. 

K: No, that’s not what I meant! (laughs) I meant—

C: No, no no! It’s true, though! I love a low-stakes celebrity gossip. 

K: Yes! I was gonna get to that. Yep.

C: I will eat it up. Just the lowest-stakes possible … I’m trying to think of an example, just, you know … someone was spotted in a McDonald’s parking lot—

K: Right. See, this is what I’m saying! That’s—

T: Oh—

K: Oh, yeah, go ahead, Toshio.

C: Oh yeah, go head, Tosh!

T: Oh, just … yeah, I’m thinking of the time … I think you sent it to me. Or maybe I sent it to you? The— 

C: (gasps)

T: —ex-real housewife dropped her Halloween candy—

K: (laughs) 

C: Oh yeah, I think I did send that to you! (laughs) 

T: Yeah. And she had obviously called the paparazzi—

C: Right! 

T: —cuz she’s not known … she was like on New York for two seasons. Kristen, I think is her name?

C: Oh! Okay, yeah, it was Kristen, who—let’s just be real; she was kinda forgettable. I had forgotten about her, now that I’m no longer seeing her on the big screen, which is my television. 

K: (laughs) 

C: But yeah, she clearly called the paparazzi. This is from Us Weekly, which—shoutout to Toshio! During COVID, he got me a subscription to Us Weekly for a bit, and it was magical.

K: (laughs) Oh my gosh.

C: You talk about … I mean, it literally made me laugh out loud. It was so … it was a perfect gift. The stars, they’re just like us.

K: (laughs) They’re not.

C: They’re not. But it would be like, “Stars: they eat food! They go on walks! They take their garbage out!” Oh, I love it.

K: See, this is what I’m talking about! This is like gossip, though, right? Cuz if … you know, those blind items and stuff like that? That is all people talking about celebrities and what they are doing or aren’t doing, right? 

C: Right.

K: Without them knowing that we’re talking about it. So to me, that’s the same as gossip. Is any of that inherently negative? No. It’s just like … saying what someone (laughing) might be doing or not doing.

C: Right. They like Halloween candy. They drop it out of their bag or their car.

K: Yeah, exactly. None of that—and in this case, maybe that doesn’t count, cuz she clearly called the paparazzi herself (laughs)

C: Yeah.

K: —so she wanted people to know. But like, I think that kind of thing sort of to me is similar to gossip, or is also a kind of gossip. And I have written down some stuff, but like, reality TV was one of the things I was gonna touch on, because to me, I think they satisfy the same—watching reality TV and like gossiping with people—

C: Oh, yeah.

K: —satisfy the same kind of … they scratch the same itch, I think.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Because you know, yet get to peek into people’s lives that—you don’t know them. Obviously with reality TV, it’s a little bit different because you … you know, they’re inviting these cameras in or whatever. But like, once the show’s over, a lot of what people do online or in their own personal social circles is talk about that stuff and those people, and like what they do or what they’re like and whatever. And so I think it’s just kind of related, to me. It’s all kind of in the same soup, gossip and reality TV. And even like I guess probably Us Weekly, too.

C: Oh, Us Weekly for sure. 

K: Yeah.

C: I … my favorite gossip story. So lemme preface this by saying—

K: (laughs) Okay.

C: I have a huge love for Dakota Johnson, and I credit Dakota Johnson—

K: (laughing) Wait a minute. How is that even possible? She’s barely anything.

C: Oh, trust—here, lemme give you a little backstory.

K: Oh my gosh.

C: So I used to have no feelings toward Dakota.

K: Yes. That’s accurate. That’s correct. (laughs) 

C: Just very neutral; not a care in the world toward Miss Johnson.

K: Yes. Mm-hmm.

C: —who is the daughter of Melanie Griffith and Don Johnson. So anywho, Dakota went on a little show called The Ellen DeGeneres Show

K: (laughs) Oh yeah. Oh, right. 

C: —and proceeded to essentially be the final straw, I think, that took down Ellen. And I am obsessed—

K: I think it was the first step, for sure.

C: Maybe it was the first step. But it was a gamechanger. That interview—

K: It was very good.

C: —with Dakota Johnson, when she went on Ellen and said, “That’s bullshit, Ellen. I did invite you to my birthday party, but you didn’t show up.”

K: (laughs) That was so ridiculous. Yeah. I remember that. I think that’s—

C: Amazing. Amazing!

K:  That’s the first time I ever felt anything towards her as well.

C: Oh, yeah!

K: I don’t think my like … my feelings went back to neutral after that (laughs), but yeah. That moment was for sure like a really good moment.

C: That moment was life-changing, and it spurred—

K: (laughs) 

C: It spurred so much comedy after that. Like people were reenacting that interview.

K: Yeah.

C: I saw this woman who—I’m sorry I don’t remember your name—but she’s a comedian. She bought the same outfit that Dakota was wearing and reenacted the interview where she played both Dakota and Ellen. So lemme—okay, so that’s the first part of this. So that really made me take notice of Dakota. I had seen Fifty Shades of Grey when I was like, really really ill, and it was a—

K: (laughs) 

C: —just … I don’t remember anything about it. It’s a terrible movie. Don’t watch it; I remember nothing. But I was really sick in bed and watched it. Anyway, so … okay, so flash forward. We’ve got this cultural moment with Dakota breaking down Ellen’s career. Somebody finally had the guts to do it, and it was Dakota Johnson. So then, after that, I was like, I’m kinda interested in this woman. I’m kinda interested to see who she is. She did an interview with someone where she said she loved limes. She painted her house a green color. 

K: (laughs) Oh, gosh.

C: She painted everything green because she just loved limes. She had a bowl of limes in the photo, like everything was limes. She just loved limes. Turns out, Dakota Johnson hates limes. She came out and said “I’m allergic to limes.”

K: (laughs) This is so …

C: And I … I ate that up so much, like this is the gossip—

K: Why?! What is there to—

C: I don’t know, Krystal!

K: (laughing) It’s not gossip! She’s saying it about herself! That’s not gossip.

C: But it is gossip because it was like, oh we all thought Dakota Johnson loved limes! Turns out she was faking it the whole time!

K: (laughing) Cuz she said she liked limes! Like …

C: So I remember texting that to Toshio. It was like, check this out! You’re gonna love this!

T: And I did.

K: I don’t understand this. (laughs) 

T: And, you know, the source being Architectural Digest

C: (gasps)

T: —that … you know. 

K: Right! That was the home … she had done like a tour or something. Right?

T: Yeah!

C: Olive green.

T: I know—I guess the media … there’s no money for fact-checkers these days.

C: (laughs) 

T: But Architectural Digest … I don’t know, I put it in a different category, like with National Geographicss, like you … you keep it on a shelf.

K: It’s like a serious person’s magazine, yeah.

T: Yeah! But even they … no money. Toward a copy editor.

C: Nobody checked. No one checked to see if Dakota liked limes.

K: But what are you supposed to check?! (laughs) Like if someone tells you they like limes, how are you supposed to fact check that? It’s not like … it’s just an opinion! I don’t know.

C: I wanna say that she might even be allergic to them. I think she might even be allergic.

K: Oh my gosh. 

C: Or maybe I’m just making that up, but you know, she really pulled a trick on us, Dakota did.

K: I … (laughs) this is the weirdest conversation. (laughs) This is where I realize I’m so, like not … I mean, I know about these things because I’m on the internet and I, you know … read. But this is where I feel super out of step with popular … pop culture. I just don’t know or care about a lot of it. (laughs) I think this is sort of where I differ in terms of gossip. Like I like gossip, but then some of it I just don’t find that interesting and so I tend to tune it out. Like this kind of thing, like, oh, Dakota Johnson said she liked limes, and actually she’s lying! I’m like … okay. (laughs) 

C: I don’t think anyone else finds this interesting, other than me and probably Toshio.

K: No, I think people do! I think—

C: I don’t think they do!

K: No, the whole thing with Dakota Johnson and the Ellen thing and then the house interview thing with like the limes—that was huge on social media. That’s why I know about it. (laughs) Like I don’t … I’m not plugged into the Dakota Johnson gossip pipeline, so the only reason I heard about it was because everyone was like, this is incredible on Twitter and stuff, and I was like, I guess so, guys. (laughs) I guess so.

C: (laughs) 

K: But then again, you know, I do have my own like weird people, where I’m super invested in like nonsense that happens or doesn’t happen in their lives and keep track. But it’s definitely not people like Dakota Johnson, unfortunately, which … you know, I wish her no ill will, but I just find her like a total zero. (laughs) 

C: I’m … honestly, I can’t believe you just said that, but—

K: I’m sorry! This is my … I have to live my truth. (laughs) 

T: (laughs) 

C: Yeah. Live your truth. However, after that Ellen interview, I am here for Dakota. She was not having it. 

K: Like I said, I was on board for that. But everything else, I was like, ehhh …

C: You know that’s bullshit, Ellen. You know you were invited.

K: I could not believe that actually was part … Like I couldn’t believe they aired that. 

C: I know.

K: Especially considering how like Ellen’s so protective of her image. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: I was like, why did she even put that out? Like why’d they even—

C: Air it.

K: —make it available to people? Yeah. It was very strange.

T: And then didn’t it come out that instead of being at Dakota’s birthday, that was perhaps the day that Ellen had been at the ballpark with George W. Bush?

C: Oh, yes.

K: Oh was it the same day? Incredible stuff. Like what a … (laughs) what a choice, Ellen! 

T: (laughs) 

C: Yeah. She had been invited, but instead she was hanging out with a war criminal. Cuz that’s what Ellen does. 

K: Oh, my god. What on earth? Like that is wild! (laughs) That is … I don’t even care if that is true. That’s like fact now, like this is … we’ve made it accurate. That is 100 percent what I choose to believe.

C: No, it was! It was confirmed. That I can tell you.

K: Oh, my god. Ellen (sighs) … what are you doing? I mean, what are you doing for like twenty years, but still.

C: Right.

K: Ugh, man. What a time. 

C: (sighs) 

K: That … okay, that … the Dakota Johnson, Ellen thing, I’m on board with that. I can go there with you. 

C: Thank you.

K: But everything else, I can’t. (laughs) 

C: I just thought the lime story was hilarious. It’s like, why bother with that weird … to me, I just… to pick some really bizarre lie and then go with it to the extent that you’re doing an interview with Architectural Digest. I don’t know. There was something so bizarre about it that I just … it made me love her. Sorry!

K: Yeah, it’s funny. I’m not gonna say it’s not funny. I’m still just like, okay. (laughs) It’s just such a weird thing.

C: Oh, I agree.

K: But yeah. That’s hilarious. That George W. Bush tidbit, I did not know was the same day. That is incredible stuff on Ellen’s part.

C: Oh, yeah. There’s evidence.

K: That is … amazing. Yeah, so—

C: What about you?

K: I don’t have a good gossip story like that, for sure. (laughs) I wish I had a Dakota Johnson-level gossip story to talk about. I mean, for me, whenever I think of like gossip … I guess it sort of goes into our popularity episode, but it makes—you know, the popularity episode we had a couple weeks ago, but it makes me think—

C: I remember.

K: Yeah, you should! (laughing) I’m glad you do!

C: (laughs) 

K: It’d be scary if you didn’t. It makes me think of high school and stuff. You know? How like—and being a teenager in general, how that is an age where even the tiniest bit of gossip about you can feel like world-ruining. (laughs) You know?

C: Yeah.

K: Yeah, and so that’s sort of … 

C: That’s not the kinda gossip I like. 

K: No, because I think—

C: I like lying about citrus. Like, that’s the kind of gossip that I’m into.

K: (laughs) Again, I don’t know if that’s gossip. But like, that, to me, is the reason I think that people think gossip is inherently negative.

C: Oh, yeah.

K: I read a really interesting article on like Newsweek? Time? One of those websites—one of those publications—about gossip and like how it developed and what we use it for, and it was really interesting that like … they did the same studies. A bunch of studies have been done. And most people think of gossip as inherently negative, which obviously we know, but I think it was something like fifty-seven percent, or sixty-something percent, of like the kinds of chit-chat conversations that we have with our social groups are gossip, but are not the negative kind. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Which I was like, see? That’s what—but I think people don’t think of that as gossip. They think of that as like, oh we’re just having like casual conversations. But it’s like, if you’re talking about people who aren’t around, and maybe you don’t even know them, then technically that is gossip. Like if you’re speculating about their actions or beliefs or whatever. But people don’t necessarily think of it as negative. And another thing I thought was really interesting from that article was like the reasons gossip may have developed. Obviously we all know it’s like a way to bond with people.

C: Right.

K: There’s nothing better than sort of, you know … sort of talking shit about people you don’t—about people you either do or don’t know with your friends. Nothing is better at bonding. But it’s also a way to like … so the idea is, at least evolutionarily, that once social networks got so big that we can’t possibly know everyone, and so gossip was a way to learn things about people that you might come into contact with that you don’t necessarily know, so you can like … you know, make choices about how to survive or interact with them. 

C: Right.

K: And so I was like, oh, that’s really interesting, that like if someone tells you something negative about someone, or that someone is potentially dangerous, that of course you’re going to make certain decisions about how you interact or whether you interact with them at all.

C: Yeah. That makes sense.

K: And I think that is very still like a huge part of gossip. And that made me think of the whole whisper network kind of thing—

C: Mm! Yeah.

K: About, you know, how … I mean, let’s just say it—women, or people who identify as women (clears throat) and how they were often (laughs) … you know, talking amongst ourselves in a way that will keep us like … safe. So it can definitely be like a negative life-ruining thing, but it can also be like, oh, you’re doing this for like self-preservation reasons, you know?

C: Yeah!

K: Which I thought was really interesting and I guess I didn’t think about as gossip, but I guess technically it could be considered, but … yeah. It was just really … a really intriguing thing that I read about, and the whole whisper network stuff made me think about all the … I don’t wanna say cancelled, cuz I don’t wanna use that language, but—

C: I know.

K: —all the men in the last couple of years who have, you know, faced consequences for their actions who had not faced it before—

C: Right.

K: —because everyone was just kind of like saying things silently, or quietly to each other, instead of like, out loud and publicly. So yeah, that’s another sort of arm of gossip that I sort of thought about and thought was very interesting, at least in terms of being considered gossip, so yeah. 

C: It is, yeah. Can I just say something tangential to this? 

K: Yeah. Let’s do it.

C: Cuz this does seem like the time and the place to do so. Speaking of the whisper networks—which I think is an excellent connection that you just made, and that’s why we do this podcast—during the kind of onset of Me Too with the Weinstein explosion of stories that came out, Meryl Streep saying that somehow she was not aware that Harvey Weinstein was a predator; she had never heard anything. And if I know about it, Meryl, I think you do too. 

K: (laughs) Yeah. I’m like … there can’t possibly be that much that I know that she doesn’t know. Like that seems weird. 

C: Yeah. And Meryl has a tendency … we’re on a first-name basis—

K: (laughs) Obviously.

C: —she has a tendency to say things in interviews that make me question her as a person. Like everyone knows she’s a wonderful actress, yes. But that was just truly in the very literal sense, unbelievable to me. To say that you had not been aware that this man who I had heard about … and I’m clearly not in Hollywood yet, so—

K: (laughs) Yet. Gotta make that part clear. 

C: Oh, yeah.

K: I do wonder, though, if it’s like … I mean, part of it is what I was kind of just talking about, right? Like maybe there’s a reason you say things to certain people that you don’t say to others, and maybe Meryl is like at a certain level, where that kind of information or knowledge just doesn’t … she doesn’t have to take it in and won’t, because she’s not the kind of person that people would … that would be in someone’s whisper network about that kind of thing, you know? This is just what I’m thinking. Like … cuz if you’re an actress that’s that well-established; that well-respected; of that age—which Meryl is—maybe she’s just like above, and people keep her above, you know? Like she doesn’t make an attempt to sort of know about stuff that other people would have to in order to get by or get ahead or whatever, and also people don’t tell her those kinds of things because she’s the person that … you know, doesn’t have to … I’m imagining Meryl has like friends, but not friends that are gonna be targets of Harvey Weinstein (laughs) and, you know, be in that same world. Although she might just be like … “I don’t—

C: I don’t buy it. 

K: —wanna hear it.” Yeah, “I don’t wanna listen to it.” 

C: I don’t buy it. I don’t.

K: I can. I can see a world in which that’s true.

C: I can see that someone of her caliber—

K: Someone—exactly. Someone of that status and stuff. Yeah.

C: I understand what you’re saying, and I think we’re both right. I think that she is probably in an extremely—well obviously—extremely privileged position—

K: Yeah.

C: —where she is removed from that. However, to not know that when literally everyone knew. Like if I know that, surely you do too. Because you are in that world. You live in the same town. Like even if you … to me, I just—

K: (laughs) I don’t think of Hollywood as a town in that sense, but yes. 

C: Oh, I do. It’s our town. Hollyweird. 

K: (laughs) Fresh.

C: Anyway, that just came to me, and I thought we should speak on it. 

K: Yeah, no. That is interesting. Yeah, because you’re right. I think when I have heard that from other people at times, I’m just like, there’s no way that’s true. When you hear about (clears throat) … you know, in the wake of all the comedy guys being exposed as like terrible people, you heard that from a number of female comedians who knew those people and worked with them or were friends with them, and were like, “I’ve never heard that in my life!” And you’d just be like, that’s not … how? (laughs) You know what I mean?

C: Yeah.

K: That’s not real. That’s not a real thing. It’s definitely not true. So I guess … I can definitely see where you’re coming from on the Meryl thing. I think also too, like maybe it’s just you hear a thing and you … it gets too horrible and you repress it—

C: Yeah.

K: —and you’re like, nope. It can’t possibly be true, this thing that if it were, and I knew about it and I didn’t do anything, then I would be a bad person. So obviously it’s not true and … you know what I mean?

C: Mm-hmm.

K: I think it might be a little bit of a self-denial kind of thing.

C: Oh, yeah.

K: Like, no I don’t want to acknowledge my part in keeping this going for however many years he was able to do all the terrible things Harvey Weinstein was able to do. So I think maybe that’s part of it too, is like she’s lying to not only us, but also herself about not knowing that that was happening, which I just can’t … you’re right. It is … it does strain credulity, to be like … mm. I’m nobody (laughs) , so how do I know about it—

C: Right! Right.

K: —and like, you are someone and you don’t?

C: Thank you for that. It does strain credulity.

K: (laughs) 

C: Such an elegant woman you are. I love it!

K: (laughs) No I’m … You know what, sometimes things come to my brain because the simpler things don’t (laughs), so I’m not trying to seem like I’m fancy; it’s just I couldn’t think of an easier way to say that. Those were the words in my mind.

C: Nah, it’s beautiful. My verbally facile friend. Thank you.

K: (clears throat) Mm, yeah. Okay. (laughs) 

C: Okay. So what other … are there other examples of gossip? To me, I used to … like I said, I do love a very low-stakes gossip, clearly, and celebrity gossip. To me, that’s just the most fun, because it’s so silly and outrageous. What that says about me as a person, I don’t know and I’m not gonna go there.

K: (laughs) 

C: But I used to really love the website Dlisted. I don’t really anymore, because the guy who runs it—or started it—no longer runs it. Also my interests have changed. I’m like, don’t know who anyone is anymore. But they used to—

K: Oh my god. That’s part of not keeping up with gossip, for sure, is like, I don’t know these young people who are getting into things. I just don’t …

C: (laughs) Right. But they used to do, you know, blind items, which unfortunately I don’t have a non-ableist way to say that—

K: Yeah, what’s the non-ableist framing for blind items, yeah

C: —but, you know, they’re writing about someone without revealing their identity as a way to prevent lawsuit. But he would invent these … not a nom-de-plume … alias, I guess. What’s a fancy word, Krystal? For alias?

K: I don’t … I don’t know. (laughs) 

C: Well, I know there’s some … I’m sure there’s a Latin phrase that I’m not aware of. Anyway, he would invent these aliases for people. So one of them he would write about all the time. And this is—Toshio, maybe you can remember this too, cuz this is goin way back, like all my stories do, but this would probably be like circa 2005 or something, and he would always write about this character Toothy Tile—

T: Mm-hmm. Of course.

C: —and there was—thank you. And there was a lot of speculation amongst … just me and Toshio, frankly—

K: (laughs) 

C: —but that it was Jake Gyllenhaal

K: Oh, that’s perfect. (laughs) 

C: And so this—and this was a … this was a big thing. He would like constantly be writing about Toothy Tile. And like Toothy Tile was (dog barking) … can you hear my dog?

K: I can.

C: That’s Alice. Shoutout to Alice and Chico! (dog barks) So … Chico! We’re talkin about Toothy Tile.

K: (laughs) 

(dog barking)

C: So there was a lot of speculation about Toothy Tile, who was probably queer but didn’t wanna come out—

K: Mm-hmm

C: And like going into … the story that I remember most is him going into a (dog barks) … what is the word? Dressing room! He was going into a dressing room with one of his male friends, and you know, they got up to some stuff in the dressing room, but, you know, you can’t reveal who this actually is.

K: Mm.

C: But it’s like, you know, that kinda gossip where it’s like, ooh, who is this? Who is this Toothy Tile?

K: (laughs) This is amazing. That’s an amazing pull. Yeah, I don’t … is Dlisted like … I’m sorry. This proves just how not into the world I am. But like is that kind of like Perez Hilton, or is it not like that at all? 

C: It’s not … I mean, yeah, although Perez Hilton is like … it wasn’t mean. Well, I don’t know. Toshio, what do you think? I would say it’s not as mean like Perez Hilton, and it’s a lot funnier. Like he was very, very funny.

K: Okay.

T: Yeah. It was funnier and also Perez did that switch. I forget what happened, but … I don’t know. Maybe it went so far as to someone committed suicide as a result of something he wrote.

C: Oh my god.

K: Oh my gosh!

T: This is gossip. 

C: This is gossip! 

K: (laughs) See? We’re doing it, guys! We’re doing it.

T: But he made that turn where he had five sites at the peak of his career, where he had a gossip site for everything, so he had like a pet gossip site.

C: Mm! 

T: He had like a gossip site that was fitness-oriented.

K: Mm.

T: He was trying to be this media mogul. 

C: Yeah, I don’t know what fitness gossip is. 

K: Yeah, I’m like, what does that mean?

T: Yeah. I think it was like deconstructing like … I don’t know—

C: The stationary bike. 

T: —fad diets and I don’t know, it was probably just ninety percent ads.

C: Yeah.

K: Mm. Mm-hmm.

T: But the reason he lost a lot of traffic, and now that feels like … I mean, even a ridiculous thing to even talk about, because the only one who’s makin money off a gossip blog today is google.

K: Yeah, websites don’t exist anymore, basically. The only gossip kinda blog that I can think of that was similar but like not really as cruel, and very specifically focused, was Gawker.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: In the 2000’s, I mean if you were our age, you know … you remember the height of Gawker, especially if you are extremely online, like I am and was—

C: Yeah.

K: —was like a huge gossip site. But their focus was very much on New York as like the center of the universe, which—

C: Yes. Which … I’m over that. 

K: —whatever. We can get into that.

C: I’m so over that. 

K: I would love to do an episode about New York and sort of New York supremacy.

C: I would love to do that as someone in a “flyover state.”

K: Exactly. Well I’m in California, so I feel like everyone’s gonna discount my opinion because they’re gonna be like, you’re just jealous! But it’s like, California’s way better. Anyways.

C: (laughs) 

K: But yeah, that is the site I think of when I think of like very popular internet havens for sort of talking about … but I think Gawker … like they did do a lot of stuff that was like pretty creepy, where they would like …

C: Gawker stalker?

K: Yeah, exactly! I was literally just about to say it. They would follow people—

C: Follow—or talk ab[out]—yeah.

K: —and say where they were, like where celebrities—like, this person is at this place right now, and it’s like, is that … (laughing) cool or okay?

C: Right. No, it’s not! (laughs) 

K: It was very—but then they also did a lot of really funny like comedy writing; a lot of incisive stuff about like the state of media in the early 2000’s and mid-2000’s—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —which, you know, if you were kind of media-adjacent, or interested in that world, it was like interesting. They did do a lot of celeb stuff too, but yeah, that’s where I sort of think of when I think of like celebrity gossip internet website-based … I think Jezebel, which is, you know, a sibling of Gawker—kind of had a little bit of that too, but like—

C: Oh, they do. I still look—I still read Jezebel

K: I read Jezebel too, but I think they always inherently, though, were much more like political

C: Yeah.

K: Like they started out around the 2008 election, is when like Jezebel launched, and so like they were inherently already like, yeah, we’re gonna talk about feminism—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and politics, and, you know, culture, generally speaking, and also here’s some celebrity stuff, cuz we know ladies like that.

C: Right. (laughs) Ladies like gossip.

K: (laughs) Ladies love talkin. So yeah, those two things are the ones that I think of in my mind as like … you know. And then there are all the kinds of like … you know, the kind of pretenders to those kinda thrones, like your XO Janes, and your like—

C: Oh, yeah.

K: —I don’t even know what was … The Hairpin?

C: Yeah!

K: Which was like, a lot less mean like celebrity focused and much more about being like a high-minded kind of humor site for ladies, but—

T: Ooh. Caitlin was featured on The Hairpin back in the day.

C: Oh, yeah. I wrote for The Hairpin a little bit.

K: Ooh, nice! So many Hairpin people are like really successful now (laughs) in writing. It’s very—

C: I am not one of them. (laughs) 

T: (laughs) 

K: No, I’m considering you one of them. I’m thinking explicitly of you, Caitlin, and then everyone else. 

C: Yeah. Right.

K: But no, those are where I think of like gossip sites from the 2000’s. I’m always thinking of like Gawker. And Jezebel, but to a lesser extent.

T: There’s a really good documentary about the fall of Gawker, which was—

C: Ooh!

K: Mm, yeah. Wild the way that that happened.

T: yeah, you’ve seen it? Nobody Speak. It’s on Netflix. and it kind of seems like the brand of gossip that we’ve been talking about for a little while has … (inhales sharply) kinda died. Because of the existence of these lawsuits—

K: Right.

C: Yeah.

T: —and people who can bankroll them so that they can kinda protect their interests, mostly wealth. I don’t know.

K: Yeah.

C: What happened to the guy who owned Gawker? Nick … 

K: Denton. Yeah. 

C: Denton.

T: Yeah, I think … he’s—

K: I think he sold it and he is just like—I think he had another media venture but it didn’t work out? I don’t know. He has a lot of money, so he’s okay.

C: I mean, I’m sure he’s fine. 

K: Yeah. (laughs) 

C: I just wondered like … that was his … Gawker was so huge at the time that I wonder just like—

K: Yeah. That it spawned all these other spinoffs! I mean he had a whole empire.

C: Right! So I just wonder like, what is he doing? Just like bein a rich guy, probably, somewhere.

K: Yeah. 

T: Yeah. 

K: I think so. I think so. I think interestingly that like, I don’t know that it’s actually died. I think it’s just shifted to being on social media. Like you have all those Instagram accounts that are specifically about gossip. Like Deux Moi? Or Deux May?

C: No, but I’m so intrigued now! What is it? 

K: D-E-U-X M-O-I, Deux Moi. It’s like a … they basically just post, like you were saying, like blind items and stuff—  

C: Ooh. 

K: —about celebrities. Then there are the ones that are more sort of demographic-focused, like specific demographics, like you have like, The Shade Room

C: Oh, lord. Yeah. (laughs) 

K: —which is about like a lotta like, you know, Black celebrity gossip and you have, like—

C: There’s The Root

K: Yeah, exactly,

C: We didn’t mention The Root

K: I think The Root is less gossipy now. They’re trying to like veer into more like, “We’re serious journalism!” Like whenever they were bought by Huffington Post, they were like, “No we’re real journalists,” which is like, okay.  

C: I did follow The Shade Room for awhile, but it’s so bad. (laughs) 

K: The Shade Room for sure. There’s a lot … there’s like, you know, there’s so many sites that I’m thinking of that are specific. And I’m sure there are ones for like … you know, queer communities, and like other communities. Those are the ones … I think they just migrated to Instagram. And I think too, people have gotten a lot smarter, maybe, about the kind of language you need to use to avoid liability. (laughs) 

C: Yeah.

K: And I think that has maybe protected people from like … I don’t know, the kind of lawsuits that killed Gawker. That whole thing was so wild. 

C: It was, yeah.

K: If people don’t know, Gawker was basically … they posted—I believe this is what—the chain of events. But they posted a video that was a clip of a sex tape from Hulk Hogan— 

C: Mm.

K: —the wrestler. And if you’re like, what? … exactly. That is exactly the response you should have.

C: Something no one wants to see. 

K: I never watched it. I was like, I don’t have any interest—

C: No, I clearly didn’t either.

K: —and like, would never. (laughs) But so apparently it became like a huge deal, and Hulk Hogan wanted it taken down, and they were like, no, this is journalistic integrity! We have a story to report! I don’t even remember what the angle was.

C: Right?! (laughs)

T: Oh—

K: But I think it probably had to do with like him—go ahead, Toshio.

T: Oh, so the actual lawsuit was funded by Peter Thiel.

K: Yeah, I was gonna get to that part. That’s how he was … he was able to marshall Peter Thiel’s resources to like launch a lawsuit against Gawker. They were sued in court, and they were like—Gawker, you know, Nick Denton, was sued in court. And I think even the editor of Gawker at the time also was like sued.

T: Yeah.

K: And they lost and Hulk Hogan won, and they basically had to pay all of these fees and such, and restitution I think, and they couldn’t afford it, so they were like, well, bye to Gawker, and so it got shut down, which is wild.

T: Yeah. Yeah, and now that editor has a podcast on recovering, cuz he became more of an … I guess addict than he had been—

C: Oh, no!

T: —whilst at Gawker.

C: What is it? Whilst? 

T: Whilst. Whilst. Like “while,” and then—

K: “While-est.”

C: I’ve never heard that name. 

K: No, no. It’s not a name. It’s a word. 

T: (laughs) 

C: Oh! Oh, whilst. 

K: Whilst at Gawker, yeah.

T: Whilst! Sorry.

K: I say whilst or whilst. I’ve heard both.

C: I thought that was his name. (laughs) 

K: No, I think his name—is it Dan Adario, or is it someone else? I can’t remember.

T: I think that’s right.

K: Yeah. I think it was Dan Adario. Yeah, it was a real big deal (laughing) when it happened. 

T: Yeah, yeah. And I mean, maybe even more so here in Silicon Valley, because Peter Thiel was such a presence—

K: Oh, yeah.

T: —and still has his hands in like everything. Like he—

K: Yeah, if y’all don’t know, he’s like on the board of facebook and a bunch of other like … he’s like an angel investor VC or something, like he—

C: Yeah. He helps fund our podcast.

T: (laughs) 

K: No he doesn’t! How dare you? Never. I would never touch a dollar of his like disgusting money.

T: Yeah.

C: That’s why people should support our Patreon, so that we don’t have to hear Thiel!

K: (laughs) So that we don’t have to—yeah, he’s our only option.

C: He really wants to give us money, and we keep saying no!

K: It’s either no money, or money from Peter Thiel, so people, make the right choice!

C: Help us!

K: Yeah. (laughs) 

T: (laughs) 

K: But yeah, that was a very interesting sort of … I wish I had done more research on this front, but I would like to know if there were other kinds of like … gossip … maybe not sites, but like g—well I mean I think the biggest one recently is the whole Meghan and Harry kind of—

C: Oh, lord. Yes.

K: —you know, thing (laughs) where they basically sued a bunch of English newspapers for printing like … horrible, racist, wrong things about Meghan, and they actually won, which was like—

C: Unheard of.

K: —I think like shocking to everyone, so yeah.

C: Oh, my gosh, yes. And I’ve talked about this before, but my mom is a big fan of the monarchy, and I keep saying like you need to go work for them, because—

K: (laughs) What does that mean?

C: Oh, she’s just like … I told you like—or maybe I didn’t, but after Prince Philip died, she’s like, “You know, I’m really worried about the queen.”

K: (laughs) Okay.

C: I mean, after that Oprah interview, I heard about Meghan and Harry every day for a long time.

K: (laughs) 

C: And, you know, she has a lot of opinions about Meghan, and a lot of opinions about Harry, and she’s like, you know, I think Harry is gonna live to regret this. Leaving the monarchy and—

K: (laughs) 

C: —well, actually, a lot of opinions on all of them. I think she is way too—

K: Invested? (laughs) 

C: Yes, she is way too invested. She gives the queen a lotta passes—

K: Why?! What for?

C: —which I don’t understand. I do not understand. Cuz I … I kinda think that Queen Elizabeth is a sociopath, legitimately.

K: I don’t understand how you could get to be at that level of like fame and wealth and literal protection and not be. Like I just don’t see how you could necessarily be like a good person, however you wanna define that. (laughs) Like I just don’t feel like it’s possible. 

C: She just doesn’t seem to give a shit about anyone.

K: She doesn’t have to! Like (laughs)

C: I mean, but it’s just like—

K: —who does she have to be accountable to? She’s the queen. You know?

C: It scares me, people like that. I’m like, you have no empathy. 

K: I think partially, too, the reason people feel so sympathetic towards her is cuz she’s basically for most of our lives, and your mom’s life too, she’s been like older.

C: Yeah.

K: You know? And she’s a woman, and so people are like, well, she can’t possibly be a bad person, cuz she’s an old woman!

C: Right. She’s a woman in power! 

K: Like, what is … (laughs) she’s a girlboss, like …

C: She’s a girlboss, Liz.

K: She’s a girlboss of England and the Commonwealth? (laughing) I don’t know. I wish I would have done more research though about like sort of lawsuits based on slander. Is it libel if it’s written? It’s libel, I think, if it’s written. 

C: And slander is auditory?

K: I think if it’s spoken, yeah, it’s just slander. 

C: Oh, I didn’t know that!

K: I think—yeah, I think those are the distinctions. But yeah, I wish I would have done more research about those kinds of lawsuits and like … cuz it definitely happens pretty—

C: Frequently, yeah.

K: —I don’t wanna say regularly, but like you hear about like every couple of years about someone winning a lawsuit against some publication or whatever for saying stuff about them.

C: Mm-hmm.

K: Either that was true or that wasn’t true and … it’s interesting, cuz it can sometimes be both. Like it was true but they just didn’t want that information out there, and they’re like, how did you get it? Or it’s just like not true at all (laughs) and they’re like, this is detrimental to my reputation or what have you.

C: Ooh, I can think of a good example of that. 

K: Mm. Go for it.

C: God I love it when that happens. Rebel Wilson sued some Australian media company

K: Oh yeah, I remember that.

C: —because they reported that she had been lying about her age. Because she kept saying that she was twenty-nine—which I love that she chose twenty-nine—

K: (laughs) Can’t choose thirty!

C: Can’t choose thirty. Gotta be twenty-nine.

K: Still young.

C: So you’re still in your twenties. But she sued someone because they found out she had been lying about her age because she kept going on the telly and being like, “Oh yeah, I’m twenty-nine,” and then someone had a yearbook of … from high school or something like that—

K: Mm-hmm.

C: —and was like, oh. You know. Not true. But she had said that in order to get career—or, you know, to maintain her career—

K: Opportunities, yeah.

C: Right. Because we don’t like women who age.

K: (laughs) Yeah.

C: But she had, you know, said she was younger, and that it had been damaging her career, and that when they reported that, I think she did lose some roles, possibly, like I think she was gonna do—

K: Oh, my gosh.

C: —and it was like a voice role. Like she was gonna be in like, Shrek Nineteen or something like that—

K: (laughing) I guess!

C: —and then lost the role or something. I don’t know. But that was a big deal in Australia.

K: Yeah, I remember that.

C: Which, yeah, again, this is another example of the low-stakes celebrity gossip that I enjoy, like, ooh, what’s going on Down Under? What’s the goss?

K: (laughing) Yeah, let’s check. Let’s check in.

C: Right.

K: But no, yeah, that’s—see, to me, the interesting part of that is like, why not like sue the company who like basically … I don’t know what the laws are in Australia, but I’m assuming if she was doing a movie and they fired her cuz she was older than she said she was …  isn’t that like illegal? (laughs) To do that? So why would you sue the publication for saying your age instead of suing—I mean, why not do both? (laughs) Like also sue the company who fired you for like being over thirty or whatever? (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

K: I don’t know, I’m just like, there’s a lot of questions here, and I don’t think any of those publications or any of the people involved come out looking super good.

C: No.

K: (laughs) Cuz it makes Rebel Wlson look—I don’t know, in my opinion, it makes her look weird that she went after the publication instead of the … you know, the companies that fired her for being too old or whatever the reason was that they gave her.

C: And as—

K: And it’s also weird that the companies would do that cuz she’s not under thirty, and also weird that … I don’t necessarily think it’s that weird that someone would say like, oh actually she’s really thirty and not like twenty-nine or whatever. However old she was. 

C: Yeah. 

K: Thirty-five or something.

C: Yeah. As always, too, I could be getting things wrong, cuz I didn’t look into it before this story.

K: No, I think you’re right. I’m pretty sure that was the case, yeah.

C: But I think there was something—there’s a kernel of truth in there somewhere. (laughs) 

T: (laughs) 

K: Yeah. I definitely remember this happening. And I remember her winning, and being like very surprised.

C: Yes.

K: Because again, it doesn’t always happen that the person bringing the complaint actually gets, you know, found in their favor. But yeah, that’s such a weird one. Like that’s a real weird one to me.

C: Yeah.

K: Like it’s a confluence of a bunch of terrible things. (laughs) 

T: Yeah.

K: Like, her feeling like she has to lie about her age—

C: Uh-huh.

K: —and then when it came out, then actually losing opportunities because she’s not as  young as she said she was, it’s like … but also too, like … that’s an easily provable fact. (laughs) You know what I mean?

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: Like why would you go around just like… I mean, if you’re telling like the people you’re hiring or whatever, that’s fine. But to be talking about it publicly in interviews and stuff like that, people can easily fact-check you—

C: Yeah.

K: —and there’s social media and stuff like that, and people could be like, yo I graduated with her. She is not thirty (laughs) or whatever it is. 

C: (laughing) Right.

K: You know what I mean? Like it just is weird to me that you would publicly lie about it for an amount of time that … to where people would like come forward and be like, actually no.

C: Yeah. 

K: Yeah. That’s just so strange. But again, it’s a confluence of a lot of bad things (laughing) about our society. 

C: Yes.

K: So I don’t necessarily blame any person for doing it. But super strange.

C: I don’t either, and I have to go back just to one thing about Harry and Meghan, I’m sorry, where when they did that Oprah interview, one thing I just loved about Meghan was she … I was like, this is how you do it. 

K: (laughs) 

C: Because there had been a lot of gossip about her and Kate Middleton getting into a fight where supposedly she made Kate Middleton cry over like bridesmaid dresses for children.

K: Right.

C: Uh, which also, I love that story. But then Meghan was like, oh no, Kate made me cry. And she goes—this is the part I love—she goes, “But I forgive her.

K: (laughs) 

C: It’s like, yes! That is how you do it!

K: Mm, I mean I guess. Maybe I’m just a little bit more hard-edged than Meghan, but I would be like, yeah, she made me cry. Period. I’m the good person here, (laughing) not her.

C: (laughs) 

K:  Like I would—I don’t know. I think there’s this idea that like women, and particularly women of color, that we have to be like super calm—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —that we can’t get very emotional, and we have to be the bigger people, and forgive and whatever, and I’m just like, I don’t believe that.

C: I don’t either.

K: I’m just like, I am very good at holding grudges, and I will hold them for as long as I need to, which could be forever, so like the fact that she did that, I’m like, I totally understand the calculation of it, like it makes sense.

C: Oh, it was beautiful. Like, from a PR move? 

K: Exactly, but—

C: From a PR move, that is like, chef’s kiss.

K: It’s very smart. But I’m just like, ugh.

C: “I forgive her”? Like, oh my god. Like, genius. That was so genius, and I thought it was hilarious.

K: Yeah.

C: Also, I’m not a fan of Kate Middleton, so I also appreciated it.

K: Again, total zero. Like I’m sure she’s fine as a person, but—

C: I don’t know. I don’t know if she is.

K: What is there to, like … I mean, I don’t know hardly anything about her except her outfits. That’s pretty much all I know.

C: Mm, she’s just like posh and … I don’t know. 

K: Fine. She’s fine.

C: Toshio, do you have any thoughts on Kate Middleton?

K: I know everyone loved her sister. Her sister’s supposed to be like the loud one.

T: Her sister’s got a nice ass, I guess.

C: Yeah.

K: But does she? It’s just a white lady butt! (laughing) Like it’s not that good. I mean … 

C: Name of the episode! Name of the episode. 

T: I can’t even … I’ve never seen it, except for in the Lifetime movie.

K: I saw it in a dress … oh. Wait who was playing her?!

T: But that was an actress portraying her! It was a no-name, because it was a Lifetime movie.

K: (laughing) Oh right, of course!

T: And they did three movies about Harry and Meghan, the first of which—

C: Which—we watched one. 

T: We watched the first one, which was amazing. Princess Diana appears as a lion

K: (laughs) What?!

C: Yeah, she’s reincarnated as a lion. Yeah.

T: On the savannah, and because—

K: (laughing) This is … oh my god.

T: —you know, Harry did his military time, and he needs some advice from his mom, and so there’s like a … 

K: Ugh.

C: He looks over … 

T: —yeah. Talkin lion. That was amazing.

K: That was a weird choice.

C: No, she wasn’t talking.

T: Yeah! Yeah, yeah. 

C: She talked?!

T: She talked!

C: I don’t remember that part. I just remember looking over and like he sees a lion, but okay. 

T: Yeah, you need to go back. You need to—

C: Well, I’ll have to watch it. I ended up having to buy it, cuz you couldn’t rent it, so I think I own … I think I sadly own that.

K: Oh my gosh, guys. I’m googling images of Pippa Middleton’s butt and it’s just making me really sad. Like (laughs) 

C: Is it just white lady butt?

K: It’s just a butt! There’s nothing … like it’s barely—

C: Nothin special?

K: I’m sorry. I don’t mean to, you know. This is her body and it’s beautiful, cuz every body is beautiful. Well, I don’t necessarily believe that. But every body is good and useful. I mean, I just think we need to get away from this idea that everything needs to be beautiful—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —and like beauty is not sort of the number one most important quality. But it’s aggressively average. (laughs) I mean, it barely curves.

C: I love it.

K: I don’t know. It reminds me of like, remember in the eighties, everyone was afraid of like having a big butt and like having—

C: Yeah.

K: I mean … everyone. When I say everyone, I mean white people were afraid of it. (laughs) Like it reminds me of one of those butts. From like 19 … early nineties like Sports Illustrated kind of butt. Which is fine. It’s a perfectly fine kind of butt.

T: Jordache.

K: But it’s like definitely nothing to write home about in the 2000’s. It’s like … yeah. Anyway. (laughs) 

T: I have so many … (laughs) tangents!

C: Oh yeah, go for it.

T: I mean, Jewel references it in her song “Intuition,” which is famously the theme song for a lady razor.

C: Ooh!

K: Lady razor! (laughs) I totally had that too. 

T: Yeah! The Kate Moss butt is out, and then the J. Lo butt, which … J. Lo had recently insured

C: Ooh! 

T: —for … what, five million dollars?

K: I think so.

C: See, that is the gossip I love.

K: What, that she insured her butt? (laughs) 

C: Yeah. Yeah.

T: (laughs) 

K: Well, I mean, you hear that too about—

C: Tina Turner!

K: —Tina Turner, and that she insured her legs … 

C: Tina Turner, yeah.

K: Didn’t Lucy … I feel like Lucille Ball had something insured also. 

C This is something that I … I love it because I don’t understand how it works, and I’m not—

K: (laughs) Yes, it’s like—

C: I’m not gonna investigate it further.

K: I know, yeah. I don’t wanna know. I don’t wanna know how it works. Like it definitely—

C: How do you insure a body part? I don’t know and I don’t wanna know.

K: Very funny.

T: It’s escapist; it’s just like … the world is heavy, and these little kind of very, at the end of the day—

C: Frivolous.

T: —yeah, meaningless, of course. 

K: Yeah.

T: The J. Lo butt thing, I mean; that Jewel song … I guess it’s still relevant today, because we do hear it in the “Intuition” commercials occasionally. But—

K: (laughs) I thought … I couldn’t remember—I’m sorry to get off-track again, but I remember thinking like, what was the order of operations here? Did she write the song, and then they came up with the razor, or did they pay her to like … they had the razor and then were like, “Jewel. We need a song from you.”

T: Ooh. That is a good question. 

K: Cuz I just—it was such perfect timing, like—

T: That’s an episode.

K: (laughs) A whole episode about Jewel. I’ll just be talking about my high school best friend who was obsessed with that album. (laughs) 

C: Jewel. Oh, I remember Jewel. I remember the big story was she had been homeless, living in her van—

K: Living in her van.

C: —she was from Alaska. And then Flea … was it Flea? … saw her perform and was like, “This girl’s got it.”

K: Great. 

C: That’s what I remember about Jewel. 

T: From …

K: Great. (laughs) Like … cool.

T: —Red Hot Chili Peppers?

C: Yeah!

K: I think so. Yeah. Sounds right to me.

T: I know that she likes … or she would hang out in bathrooms a lot

C: Who doesn’t, though?

K: (laughs) 

T: Yeah. 

K: I think the tenor of that changes depending on who you are, but sure. I’m sure Jewel could get away with it.

T: (laughs) True. Absolutely. I was thinking about … well, no, I don’t need to go there.

C: What?

T: But … oh, just like yeah, the ageism thing—the Page Six of it all—

C: Oh, yeah.

K: Mm-hmm.

T: —I think has kind of disappeared also, because … well, A) because Rupert Murdoch owns Page Six

K: It’s terrible.

T: Super right-wing. They were like the … you know, Gray Lady, or—

C: (laughs) 

T: —the standard of gossip, Page Six, for … like, pre-internet.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: Yeah.

T: And now they’re nothing, and they will not … they would never, you know, print anything that would be super controversial, I think. But they did a few years ago—that made me laugh—they had a headline that said “Fabulous at Forty-Seven.” It was Laverne Cox’s birthday. 

C: (gasps) Oh!

K: (laughs) 

T: And of course, you know, it was like super snark—

K: Yeah, shading.

T: It reminded me of the Perez Hilton, pre-getting all nice.

K: (laughs) 

T: But it’s something that … yeah, again, you can’t—like ageism isn’t something that you can necessarily litigate.

C: But they had done that specifically because Laverne had been saying she was much younger.

T: That’s true. That is true. And so there was that kernel. (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

T: And then also, social media. It’s like you’ve mentioned, you know, whatever, Instagram, or TikTok, it’s replaced the gossip columnist.

K: Yep. I think too, like maybe … I think that partially also maybe contributes to the lack of litigiousness on people’s parts, because they just feel like, well I’ll just go on my social media and say whatever, or post an image and write a long caption or whatever, you know? And I think they can more directly appeal to people in a way that maybe they couldn’t in the nineties, when the only—or even in the early 2000’s, when it was like the only way to make sure that people knew like, this is how I feel about something, was to go on Johnny Carson (laughs) or whatever—

T:  celebrity, yeah. 

K: —or do a, you know, huge lawsuit or something, and now it’s just like, people just go on Twitter or Instagram and say whatever it is they have to say, or (laughing) whatever their PR team has said is okay to say.

T: I was trying to follow this (dog barks) comedian called Patti Harrison the other day—

K: Oh yeah! Party Harderson. Yep.

C: Oh yeah! We talked about Patti Harrison before on this show. A big fan of hers, yeah.

K: Yeah, when we talked about Shrill. Yeah. She’s great. 

T: Yeah. Yeah, Shrill just came back. 

K: I know, I haven’t watched it yet.

C: I haven’t either. I need to watch it. 

T: Hilarious. It’s so good, the first couple episodes that I watched. LOL’ed. But Patti Harrison has been banned—

K: (gasps) —from Twitter, perhaps permanently, for the Nabisco incident!

C: Oh no!

K: I was gonna say, is it cuz of the Nilla Wafers thing?!

T: Yes!

C: Oh no! Cuz we discussed that … no! She got—

K: We talked about it on the podcast! That’s amazing.

C: Oh yeah, we did talk about it on the podcast, and I … oh, no. That kills me because—

K: That’s so good. That’s perfect. (laughs) 

C: —that was my favorite sort of Twitter—

K: It was so funny.

C: —rampage that she went on, pretending—so, just to recap, Patti Harrison, who is … fucking icon.

K: (laughs) Oh my gosh. Amazing.

C: She changed her Twitter to make it look like she was tweeting from the Nabisco account, and then she pretended to be Sia, the singer, tweeting from the Nabisco account, and was just tweeting out these outrageous things that—

K: (laughs) Oh, my gosh.

C: —I am still … I took photos of them, cuz I knew she’d take em down, but … oh my god. And then I think I texted them to Tosh, cuz again, the low-stakes … here we go, like I am so here for it. They make me laugh so hard.

K: But that’s amazing. Cuz that’s trolling. Like that, to me, is like incredible trolling. Cuz she’s trolling both Nabisco and Sia—

C: And Sia.

K: —for like, all of the ridiculous stuff she’s been saying recently, so that was amazing.

T: But then it ended up that she got banned from Twitter, perhaps permanently—

C: Ugh! 

T: Like, Jaboukie, the same. Like—

C: Oh, yeah.

K: I was gonna say! He did the whole Biden thing, and also like the FBI, like (laughing) he’s done a lot of like … 

C: He’s constantly trolling. Which I love.

T: Yeah yeah yeah.

K: Oh, man. It’s so good. It’s like, so high-level comedy. I love it so much. So, so good.

T: I know!

C: Justice for Patti! That is—

T: Absolutely.

K: I know! I feel like I … because Jaboukie’s back on Twitter, so maybe it’s not permanent, hopefully? I don’t know. That sucks.

C: Yeah, Jaboukie tends to get banned, like, frequently.

K: (laughing) I know, all the time! It’s like every month.

C: Yeah.

K: It’s like, he can definitely not … he’s not gonna try the Biden thing again, like for sure not anymore.

C: Oh my goodness.

K: That’s too bad. But ugh, man. At least—I think Patti’s still on like Instagram, so that’s cool.

C: Oh, she definitely is. I keep tabs on her.

K: Gotta make sure—ooh, that’s exciting about Shrill. If you said you laughed at the first couple episodes, I’m psyched to finish it.

C: Yeah. Me too.

T: There’s definitely moments when Eric—my boyfriend—had to put an actual blanket over his eyes—

K: (laughs) 

T: —cuz it was like, awkwardness.

K & C: Oh no!

T: But hilarious.

K: Oh my god. I’m excited.

C: Well, I think that is a good place to end—

K: Wait! I have one more thing about gossip!

C: Oh no no no! Go for it.

K: It’s a fun thing. The only thing—the other thing I think of when I think of gossip is the band, The Gossip

C: Yes.

K: Beth Ditto. Amazing.

C: Yes! 

T: Which, so Caitlin actually has a—

K: Mm!

T: —direct connection. No degrees of separation. 

K: I was gonna say, I hoped you would have—

C: I do.

K: —because I’m like, this is the right audience for talking about The Gossip, so.

C: No that’s true, yes. I knew Nathan in high school! Yeah.

K: Oh did you?

C: Yeah!

T: And it’s actually a Little Rock connection, shockingly.

C: He’s from Searcy, which is outside of Little Rock. But yeah—

T: Sorry!

C: —we used to hang out. 

K: Ohh.

C: (laughs) No, it’s okay!

T: That sounded shady!

C: Did it? I’m sorry. 

K: (laughs) 

T: (laughs) A little bit. Searcy! What’s the connotation of Searcy?

C: Um, well certainly not the cosmopolitan that Little Rock is.

K: Wow, they formed in Searcy, Arkansas! That’s where they’re from. 

C: Yeah. Yeah. I did not mean that to sound shady, but I’m sure I did.

K: (laughs) 

T: I mean, I think gossip—local gossip, we’ve only been talking about, you know the Hollywood—the Hollyweird—

K: (laughs) 

T: —and the New York gossip. And with some—

K: I mean, we kinda talked about San Francisco gossip last week when we talked about the honeybear stuff, so, you know.

T: True. True true. 

C: That’s true. Well, yeah, from what I hear, Nathan is now born-again, and—

K: Good for him.

T: And is it the girl from Evanescence

C: Oh, yeah! She’s from Little Rock. 

K: Is that who he’s married to?!

C: No. No, no—

K: Oh! I was like, what?! (laughs) 

C: I can’t remember her name.

K: That almost broke my brain.

T: Just born-again people from Arkansas.

K: Exactly. Okay, they were—I feel like Evanescence was always like explicitly Christian.

C: Christian.

K: Yeah, all about it, yeah.

C: They are. I have some boring gossip about them.

K: Mm-hmm, yes? I’m listening.

C: Amy Lee! Amy Lee is her name. So she went to a private school that my friend went to. I went to public school, y’all.

K: Same.

C: So they went to school—and I remember we went to a show where she was singing with some band. It may have been Evanescence.

T: (laughs) 

C: But I remember being in high school and seeing them and like they had a song like “In My Backpack of Broken Dreams” and I was like—

T: Mm!

K: Yeah, mkay. They’re just … 

C: That is a terrible line even as a teenager, so.

K: That’s too much. (laughs)  

C: There’s some Little Rock goss.

T: That’s so good. 

K: Oh, Evanescence. Bless your hearts. Bless your hearts. 

T: That’s good. That’s good.

K: Well I’m really glad I brought this up, cuz I did not know any of that. I did not know Evanescence was from—

C: Little Rock?

K: I didn’t know that. 

T: Yeah! Second-most famous person—

K: (laughs) After Bill Clinton?

C: Yeah! (laughs) 

T: Well, and Caitlin!

K: And then Caitlin. You’re number three.

C: And—oh yeah, after Caitlin. After me. Um, I did go to the same junior high as Chelsea. But she was a year—oh, here’s a little gossip for you about Chelsea Clinton.

K: Mm.

T: Chelsea went to public school?! That is some goss! (laughs) 

C: Yeah, Chelsea went to Horace Mann Junior High, like me.

K: Wow.

C: Though she was a year or two above. And here’s—this is some true gossip about Chelsea. One, she was in drama; and the other was she was a little timid in gym class.

T: (gasps) Ooh!

K: (laughs) Wait … definitely blowin the doors open on this Chelsea … 

T: You’re goin hard! 

C: (laughs) I know!

T: Lawyer up.

C: Yeah, allegedly! Allegedly, she was timid in gym class.

K: No, this is her brand, though! She’s very much a self-deprecating person, like that’s her thing, so I don’t think she’d be upset about any of this being public knowledge. 

C: Okay, well I’ll stop now, cuz—

K: (laughs) It’s truly like a ….

C: I think my Chelsea Clinton gossip was, like, the hottest you’re gonna get.

K: It was too hot. It was too hot. You hotbedded it out, yeah.

T: Did you know that every one of the Clintons has a different podcast?

C: No!

K: Oh, that’s not surprising. Everyone h[as]—we have a podcast! (laughs) Like, that’s not surprising.

T: That’s true.

C: (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Everyone has one.

T: Yeah. I mean, and they all have the worst names. I know that they must have market-tested them like a million times over.

K: I don’t even know … like I guess I knew that Hillary had one. I didn’t know Bill had one. 

T: Yeah. Hillary’s is called You and Me Both.

K: Mkay.

C: Mm. Don’t really love that. What’s Chelsea’s? 

T: Chelsea’s is—

C: Bad at Gym Class.

T: —In Fact. (laughs) 

C, K, & T: (laugh)

K: We are really gonna get …

C: Allegedly! Allegedly.

T: It’s called In Fact.

K: In Fact.

C: In fact I don’t like that either. 

T: And then—

K: No, it’s too short.

C: Yeah, it doesn’t tell you.

T: Bill Clinton’s—

K: Hard to google.

T: It’s called Why Am I Telling You This?

C: (laughs) 

K: No, is that true?! That’s not real. 

C: Does he say it like that?

K: That … I gotta google that myself. That can’t … cannot be real. 

C: Does he say it like that in every episode, too?

T: I don’t know. Maybe we could splice it in? (laughs) 

C: Why Am I Telling You This?!

T: (laughs) 

K: It’s really called that?! That’s … why did he call it that though?! (laughs) 

C: He’s upset that he started his own podcast. Why am I even talking?

T: (laughs) 

K: That’s amazing that he was like, yeah you know what? I’m just gonna go for it. I’m just gonna go for it with the name, like … oh my goodness. That’s …

T: I think Hillary’s is the worst of the three, though, I would say. You and Me Both?

K: I mean, none of them are good. But at least hers is a lot more like … it makes me like … theirs makes me cringe. Or like, shrug. 

T: Okay.

K: Bills—Hillary’s makes—no. Chelsea’s makes me shrug. In Fact is not a good name. It’s very boring; you can’t google it. 

T: Too short. Yeah.

K: And Bill’s is like … audacity. Like (laughing) he had to call it Why Am I Telling You This? Like, yeah, why are you?

T: Yeah.

K: Like, who asked for it.

T: You better come with the gossip if you are … (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

K: I know, if you’re gonna call it that! Come on. And then Hillary’s is just like, You and Me Both? Like what does that mean? Like … you and me both what? Like we don’t … what do we have in common? (laughs) 

C: (laughs) 

T: I know, it’s like, you and me—

K: Anyway, all my Hillary-liking people are gonna be mad at me for this episode, but I’m sorry. (laughs) I mean, I’m not sorry. But um—

C: No.

K: Yeah. That was fun. That was a fun little tangent to end on.

C: That was fun! I love it. Thank you, Tosh.

K: I mean, thank you to me for bringing up gossip.

T: Yes. Absolutely. 

C: Oh, yeah. 

K: I mean, also to you, Toshio. (laughs) But I wanted to get my credit, too.

C: (laughs) Okay, well. You know what time it is.

T: Yes.

K: Is it Two Cents, No Tax time?

C: It is time, and I’m up this week.

K: Okay, so I’m just gonna start. So Two Cents, No Tax. We’re just gonna go through with a couple sort of … not necessarily rapid fire, but I’m gonna give Caitlin a couple of topics, ideas, people, et cetera, and I want her to sort of give me her top-of-mind opinion. So are you ready?

C: Oh, I’m so ready.

K: Okay. So my first one … I feel like people have a lot of opinions about this thing, so I wanted to get your opinion on the word moist.

C: Oh! Wonderful. I’m so glad you asked me. Yeah, people do have a lot of opinions on that. I too, I am like everyone else where I don’t enjoy it unless you are talking about food specifically.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: And this kind of goes along with when people … to me, it’s very similar to when people use the word “delicious” and they are not talking about food—

K: Oh, I do that all the time.

C: I cringe and want to die.

K: I do that all the time! (laughs) 

C: I do not like it. I do not like it. It makes me feel very gross and uncomfortable. So I will respectfully ask you to not do that—

K: Nope.

C: —when you’re in my company.

K: I’m sorry. I did it literally last night. We’re talking—someone on Twitter was talking about the NBA playoffs and how the Lakers are probably gonna play the Warriors in the first game of the play-in tournament, and I was like, oh. Sounds delicious.

C: (laughs)  

K: I say it all the time. I just love it. I think it’s such a funny word! So—

C: It is funny!

K: —I’m sorry you don’t like it. I just think it’s funny in that context.

C: It makes me uncomfortable. It makes me uncomfortable.

K: I also like moist, so I think we’re just—

C: Oof.

K: —we disagree on that, so … (laughs) 

C Speaking of coming in hot, Krystal. Jesus.

K: I know, I have a lot of opinions on this podc[ast]—on this episode, so—

C: Wow. That was a good one. That’s a good one, because it’s very polarizing.

K: It is! This is why I wanted to get your take. Because I know often you’re like, goin against the grain, so I was like—

C: That’s me.

K: —I’m surprised that you were like, no I also don’t like it (laughs) and I’m like, you know what? That’s fair.

C: Caitlin Goin-Against-the-Grain Clinton. That’s me. 

T: (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Oh, my gosh. So my other … okay, so I have a couple of actual just people I wanted to get your take on.

C: Okay! Gossip, gossip!

K: Yeah, speaking of gossip, this person gets … she has a whole lotta people feeling a lotta ways about her. 

C: Mm!

K: Um, how do you feel, what’s your take—your Two Cents, No Tax take—on Chrissy Teigen?

C: (gasps) Oh! (laughs) Yeah. Yeah, okay. So, number one, I know how you feel. (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Don’t let that color your own take. I want you to have your own individual opinion.

C: Let me say that my opinion of her has changed dramatically in that I initially found her funny and kind of charming on Twitter.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: So that was my initial reaction to her. I thought she was very good at Twitter; she’s into food, I’m into food, okay. Of course now, you know, going … COVID brought us a lot of time to be checking our phones and checking Twitter—

K: (laughs) 

C: —so the charm wore off for me, and the last straw was … actually, this wasn’t the last straw, but it just confirmed my opinion. Cuz I think I had unfollowed her by this point, but when she came out with the story about how … you know, one time a waiter had brought them the thirteen thousand-dollar bottle of wine

K: (laughs) Right. Yeah.

C: And like, “Haha!”

K: Isn’t it so funny that we just bought it and drank it? It’s so relatable.

C: Right. I was just like, Chrissy. Chrissy. Ugh … now she just is kinda like, Chrissy, just stay home. Stop being on Twitter. When she got off Twitter and everyone was like, she’s gonna come right back—

K: Yeah.

C: —and I was like, yeah, I know she will. That’s exactly what she did.

K: Of course.

C: Yeah, so I would say, not a fan. I didn’t have as strong of a reaction towards her I think that you did initially, but now I’ve come around to where—

K: I would say … my opinion of her is like—I find her very … were you ever on LiveJournal? Like, as a—

C: Yeah. 

K: Okay.

C: You know I was. 

K: I don’t know! I mean, I could have assumed, but I don’t wanna make assumptions about you. She reminds me of like the most dramatic person on LiveJournal, you know?

C: Yeah.

K: There were those people who were just constantly like … what we used to call flouncing, where they were just like, “I’m leaving forever!” And then they’d come right back. Cuz they loved the attention that they get from being on a place.

C: Mm. Right.

K: But I think I just found her very … you know those people who are very—they have very like one-percenter kind of lives in many ways—

C: Yes.

K: —and they don’t see that that’s what they have, and they’re like, no no, I’m relatable and cool! And it’s like, well, you’re not.

C: Right. 

K: You might be cool in what you’re doing—not relatable, and it’s just a very try-hard energy that I just don’t vibe with.

C: Mm. Yes.

K: Plus I never loved that she tried to come for Quvenzhané Wallis when she was like … a little child.

C: Did she?!

K: Yes.  

C: Oh, see I didn’t know that. 

K: See, people don’t remember this because they haven’t been on Twitter as long as I have, which is too long.

C: (laughs) 

K: (laughs) But back when Quvenzhané was making an Oscar run for Beasts of the Southern Wild, there were a couple of scandals about her. One was that The Onion called her the c-word

C: Yes. I do remember that. Yeah.

K: —as like a joke article. But also, Chrissy Teigen was just like, oh I can’t stand her. She’s so self-centered and like, isn’t she … she just gets on my nerves—

C: What?!

K: —and I’m like, she’s literally like eight years old or whatever, you know? So I just have never liked her since then. I’m just like, you don’t come for a little child. A little black girl, at that.

C: Wait, what? She—

K: Google it. Google it, do the google. (laughs) 

T: Okay. I’m gonna do that.

C: Oh my god.

K: It was a thing that happened! (laughs) 

C: No, I believe you, just—

T: How did we miss that?

K: She revamped her image after that. Like she did the whole like—

C: Clearly.

K: —”I’m married to John Legend now! I’m like a wife and a cook and I model”—not as much —“and I’m like a mom now” and so she sort of like … you know. She did an image revamp, and so I don’t think people remember it, but I do. (laughs) 

C: Oh. Wow.

K: That’s basically the core of my dislike of her. I don’t think she ever addressed it, either—

C: Probably not.

K: —and she had this whole thing last year where she was like, “Yeah, bullying is so wrong!” I’m like, “Is it? That’s curious that you would say that.”

C: Interesting. What a delicious thing for her to say—

K: Yeah. Exactly. So good.

C: —after coming for a child.

K: —it made my eyes moist. No, um (laughs)

C: Interesting. That is … that definitely makes me dislike her quite a bit. 

K: Yeah. It was a bad look, I have to say.

C: That’s terrible. That’s terrible.

K: Okay, so what is your … okay, this one is interesting because it’s coming up, and I feel like an outlier for how I feel about it, but I’m wondering if you have [a] similar take on it, but like how do you feel about summer?

C: The season? 

K: Yup.

C: As if there’s any other kind.

K: (laughs) I was like, what else is there?

T: The girl—the name?

K: The name Summer for a girl.

C: I am a fan because I’m always cold. 

K: Mm. Mm-hmm.

C: Like right now my hands are freezing—

K: Oh my gosh.

C: —and right now it’s probably in the seventies outside, but it’s always cold in here! Like I have literal goosebumps that never go away. They’re permanent.

K: Oh my god. (laughs) 

C: My body is so … I’m just a freak show. And—

K: (laughs) You and me both.

C: I’m just … I’m kind of kidding and kind of not, but uh … 

K: (laughs) 

C: Yeah, I enjoy summer. No one else around me does.

K: Okay.

C: Everyone else around me runs very hot. I am perpetually cold, so I enjoy it … I like going out. My favorite thing is to go outside under the shade of a tree and read. That’s like my jam.

K: Aw! So wholesome.

C: (laughs) I know. My dogs join me. It is very wholesome, and my dog just like lays next to me and it’s like a very sweet moment.

T: It is.

C: So I enjoy summer. How do you feel about summer? Do you like it? 

K: I hate it. 

C: Do you hate it? Okay.

K: I hate it so much. I’m from Central California, where … so it’s in the valley of, like the Central Valley, San Joaquin Valley, and people are like, oh, it’s probably not that bad. No, it’s extremely bad. It’s incredibly hot. It’s just—

C: Is that where—

K: —right in the middle of the state. 

C: Sorry. Is that where Death Valley is, or no?

K: No, that’s further South.

C: Okay.

K: That’s like, in the actual desert, yeah. But yeah, I just don’t like it. I am one of those people that run hot, and I grew up in a place where … right now, like in May, like it’s already in the nineties there. Like summer will be above a hundred almost every day.

C: Yeah.

K: Usually you get those days when it’s like, a hundred and ten [degrees]. A hundred and thirteen.

C: No, thank you. That’s too hot.

K: And it’s like … I don’t wanna live like this! Yeah, it’s just like, as soon as I could get away, I was like, I have to leave this area of California, cuz I can’t survive it. It’s just basically like … summer is like, going from one air-conditioned place to another. Like you can’t do anything else or it’s too hot. Like you can swim, obviously, like that’s one thing that’s like kind of like a relief, but everything else is just like so hot. I hate it. I hate—

C: Yeah.

K: I do like summer in the Bay Area though, cuz it’s like not real summer. It’s fake summer.

C: Yeah. It’s always cold.

K: (laughs) Yeah. Basically people start freaking out if it gets like, eighty-five degrees, everyone’s like, “Oh no! This is the end!” (laughs) It’s like … guys. Relax.

T: I always think obligatory fun, and because I’m glass half-empty—as, I mean, I think we all could be at moments, or all the time, and—

K & C: (laughs) 

T: —and I just, I’m like, just waitin for those back-to-school ads to come around.

K: (laughs) Yeah. I mean, where you’re a kid, it’s different cuz like you know summer is gonna be—like the benefit of summer means like—

C: A break!

K: Yeah, it means no school, right? Like summer is synonymous with not having to go to school, which is like, amazing. But when you’re an adult, you don’t even get that—

T: It’s true. Absolutely.

K: —and it’s like not fair. What is there to look forward to about summer? 

T: (laughs) 

K: Like nothing’s gonna be different. It’s gonna be the same as every other season, which is I have to go to work.

T: It’s just gonna be some wildfire. Yeah, totally.

K: Yeah, exactly! Yes, and that’s another thing about California, is like, that summer is fire season, and that’s like …. really getting worse every year, so, you know, yeah. It’s not the best in my opinion—

C: Yeah.

K: —but that’s just me. 

Okay, I always try to have a food one—

C: Sure.

K: —so my other Two Cents [No Tax]—but I think this’ll be my last one, unless you wanna do another one.

C: Let’s do this last one.

K: Okay. My last one is—

C: Make it good! (laughs) 

K: (laughs) Oh no! Now there’s pressure. Okay, how do you feel about sushi?

C: Oh, love it! I love sushi!

K: Okay. Cool.

C: I’m assuming you don’t.

K: No, I do. I love it. It’s amazing.

C: You do love sushi?

K: Yeah! (laughs) You just assumed my opinion was gonna be negative!

C: No! No, just … our food tastes are very different.

K: Oh, that’s true.

C: That’s why I assumed that. I love sushi. 

K: Good.

C: I love pretty much every Asian cuisine.

K: Yeah. How could you not? So good.

C: Japanese, Korean, Indian, like pretty much everything from the continent of Asia, I’m gonna be loving.

K: I just like to eat, and so I love—I love Ch—

C: I do too! 

K: It’s interesting. I never tried … where I grew up in my hometown, we had one Chinese restaurant. And like that’s it. And it served the like very stereotypical Chinese American kind of food.

C: Yeah. Yeah.

K: And I didn’t have any of that—like, sushi, or anything, Indian food—until I was in college.

C: Yeah, same here, I think.

K: And so it was one of those things where like I’m trying it and I’m like, oh this … but then I also got like really into it cuz you could have it all the time cuz, you know, you’re living close to stuff, and you have the places that are pretty cheap and they cater to students and stuff. And so it was really nice to have that time to try different things, so I totally agree. Any kind of Asian cuisine, fusion, whatever, like I would like to have it.

C: All the time, yeah.

K: Now I think we’ll finish up talkin about what we are reading or listening to or watching this week, and I have a good one that really fits in with the topic at hand.

K: Ooh, go for it. Go for it.

C: So this week, I read Casey Wilson’s memoir—

K: (laughs) Yeah.

C: Or her essays, rather, The Wreckage of My Presence.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: And if you have listened to this podcast, you know I adore Casey Wilson. I think she is just so funny and smart and sweet. She played Penny in Happy Endings; she does the Bitch Sesh podcast, so I’m a huge fan. So obviously I’m gonna get that book and read it!

K: (laughs)

C: And I did, and it made me laugh out loud. Several times, I was laughing out loud. It also made me cry. 

K: Aw!

C: There are … she really shares quite a bit. Some of it I … you know, she’s a sexually liberated woman—

K: Mm!

C: —and really put it out there, which I respect too.

K: Whoa.

T: Huh.

C: She—a lot of it, yeah, I know. Toshio’s like giving a little surprised face, and I agree. I was surprised!

K: I am surprised too!

C: There’s a lot about her mom, who died unexpectedly at fifty-four. I didn’t realize she was that young. So there’s a lot about grief and motherhood, both with her mom and herself as a mom. There’s some Hollywood gossip in there, which I love.

K: Mm-hmm.

C: There … what else does she talk about? I mean it really … there’s a lot about her family, and also her dad, who is a character.

K: Yeah, she seems very close to him, which is like really fun. Yeah, when she talks about him. (laughs) 

C: Yes. And I really recommend it. It’s called The Wreckage of My Presence. It’s a fun read. I was—I tried a couple other books before I got that, and just nothing—it was like Goldilocks.

K: (laughs) 

C: Nothin was going right. And then I found it and it was just right. s\So highly recommend The Wreckage of My Presence by Casey Wilson, and I don’t wanna give anything away by saying too much, but there is kind of an evolution of her ideas and herself as a person while you’re reading the book, and I will say the final essay is really great and you learn why it is titled The Wreckage of My Presence.

K: Mm.

C: And it was just very interesting to kinda see what all she’s talking about. But I mean, it really—there are some hilarious, hilarious things in that book and also stuff that genuinely made me cry about her family and … just highly recommend that. Casey Wilson.

K: Awesome! Yeah, I’ve been—

C: What about you?

K: I’ve been seeing a lot of the chatter about that—the chatter about that on social media, about like … I think she did like a … maybe she did like an author Q & A, or some kinda zoom thing recently? I can’t—oh yeah, you invited me to it! (laughs) 

C: Oh yeah! (laughs) 

K: I was like, where did I hear that? Literally from Caitlin. Yeah, no that’s really awesome. She just seems like one of those people—again, I talked about Chrissy Teigen and how I’m like, “Some people just don’t seem relatable.” She seems extremely relatable, and like—

C: She’s very relatable. Very relatable.

K: —and like an actual real person. (laughs) Maybe that’s just cuz she’s not as super-wealthy, and was not like a Swimsuit Illust … you know, not a Sports Illustrated swimsuit model. 

C: Mm-hmm.

K: But yeah, that sounds awesome. I actually also read a book.

C: (gasps) Nice.

K: Not to brag (laughs), like this is my second one I’ve read the entire time we’ve been doing this. But I read a book called When No One Is Watching by Alyssa Cole. Have you read that? 

C: I know exactly what that book is, and … let me see if I’ve read that. If I didn’t read it, I know that I had contemplated reading it.

K: Mm-hmm. I bought it awhile ago on Kindle and … I do this with Kindle all the time, like I’ll see things on sale, and I’ll just go through and buy like three or four things—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —cuz they’re like less than three dollars, and I’m like, I’ll get to it eventually. And so I was kinda, same as you, trying to find something to read. So you did read it?

C: No, I didn’t read it. But I do know the book, and I had … (laughs) I thought about reading it. I hadn’t. I know—so it’s a thriller. I read a lot of thrillers, and this one has to do with gentrification, correct?

K: It does. So the main character, her name is Sydney. She is from Brooklyn, and born and raised there.

C: New York. Brooklyn, New York.

K: (laughing) As opposed to? The other Brooklyn. 

C: Sorry. I’m just being … I’m just being ridiculous.

K: (laughs) I know. But I mean, Matthew Brooklyn—

T: Decker.

C: Decker. It’s Brooklyn Decker, is the character.

K: Remember when she was everywhere for awhile? That was fun. But yeah, so she’s from Brooklyn, and she lives in a neighborhood that’s like super gentrifying really quickly, and basically is to, like … I don’t know, try to give herself connection to the community and the history, she starts like a walking tour that she sets up. And she starts to—as she’s doing it, this other guy in her neighborhood starts to join her and she doesn’t really like him, but he just keeps being around. And so they end up together doing this walking tour, and they notice that like a lot of people are missing. And they’re like, why are people … how is this neighborhood gentrifying so quickly, essentially. Like how are these people—where are these people disappearing to? Like are they being pushed out because of, you know, market forces, or is there something else basically going on in the neighborhood? Another explanation of why people are leaving in such high numbers and these other people are coming in, and like what’s actually going on there. And I heard—someone before I bought it was like, oh, it’s like Get Out, but for gentrification! And I was like, well, that’s basically Get Out. (laughs) 

C: Yeah.

K: Like, it’s the kind of same thing, but yeah.

C: I had read that too, yeah.

K: You did read it?

C: No, no, I had read that comment.

K: Oh, you read that about it. Yeah, yeah yeah. I don’t know. It’s … whenever one movie gets popular, people always want to find other things that they can say are like that movie—

T: Mm-hmm.

K: —but I’m just like, just cuz it has like Black people, and it’s about like, you know—

C: Scary white people. Doin shit they shouldn’t be doin, yeah.

K: (laughs) Yeah, not necessarily like it’s about Get Out—it’s like the Get Out for blank. It’s like, it’s not … you can’t use it for everything. 

C: (laughing) Yeah. 

K: But I really liked it. I don’t read a ton, like you were saying, I don’t read a ton of thrillers usually, so it was kind of a fun little change of pace for me.

C: Mm-hmm!

K: The author is apparently pretty prolific, like I’d never heard of her before this book and I had not read anything else by her, but I think I will sort of check out some of her other work. I think she’s actually like a historian—

C: Ooh!

K: —and that’s why she sort of works in history of, you know, this Brooklyn neighborhood, and Brooklyn in general, into this book. So that’s kind of interesting to know, so I’ll probably be checking out more by her. But this book was called When No One Is Watching, and highly recommend it. By Alyssa Cole.

C: Krystal, we have some business to take care of.

K: Ooh, yeah we do.

C: So let’s cut the shit and get to it!

K: (laughs) Enough playing around! We’ve been doin it for two hours; let’s go. 

C: Yes! Okay. So we do have some people we need to shout out. 

K: Oh my gosh, yes! Excited.

C: Like for real for real. Doctor O. First of all, thank you, Doctor O., for saying on Twitter that I didn’t have to worry about how to pronounce your name.

K: Very kind of her to say that, honestly.

C: It was extremely kind,  because if you listen to this podcast, you know I cannot pronounce literally anyone’s name.

K: (laughs) 

C: It does not matter who they are. I don’t know what’s wrong with me. But—

K: And you shouldn’t feel bad, cuz I had the same question before I ever met her in person. I was like, how do you say your name? Cuz it’s—

C: Right. So shoutout to you, Dr. O.! She—if you’ve read our Twitter, you know that she discovered penicillin!

K: (laughs) 

C: So thank you, Dr. O., for supporting our podcast.

K: Yeah, we really appreciate that, and the life-saving scientific discovery too.

C: Yes! And then I believe it was Rachel

K: Yeah!

C: Who also supported, and who—people don’t know this about Rachel, but she graduated college at thirteen

K: (laughs) 

C: She can speak many languages. Very intelligent woman, Rachel, and she supported our Patreon. And finally, we must shout out Adam, from Crust Almighty in Portland, Oregon.

K: Heck yeah.

C: So Adam makes bread. And this bread is incredible. It is not only delicious, but it helps cure fatigue and night terrors and low self-esteem. So if you’re in Portland—

K: (laughs) And also if you buy it, you’ll get a beautiful dog like Adam has. I think that those come with the bread.

C: Does it? You get a dog, too.

K: Yeah.

C: So if you’re in Portland … how … just check out Crust Almighty, why don’t you? I don’t think you’ll be disappointed.

K: Yeah. Beautiful bread, too, like it’s gorgeous.

C: Beautiful bread. Amazing bread. I have really high self-esteem now from eating that bread. 

K: (laughs) 

C: So we must thank all of our patrons. Oh, and Toshio! How could we forget fuckin Toshio?! 

K: (laughs) 

C: Toshio supported our own Patreon

K: Amazing. 

C: That was amazing. Most people do not know that Toshio used to babysit Jojo Siwa. He has taught her everything that she knows. 

K: (laughs) 

C: We thank Toshio for patronizing our Patreon. We cannot do it without y’all. As a reminder, you can support us, which we greatly appreciate, at Patreon.com/TwoCentsPlusTax. It goes toward our transcript costs. We like to keep things accessible for everyone—

K: Yep.

C: —because we fucking should, and it really helps us cover those costs, and we really do appreciate it, so thank you very much.

K: It’s funny, before I had a podcast, or was on a podcast, like people … hosts would talk about that stuff, and I’m like, how much could it really cost?

C: It really can, uh … yeah. Yeah.

K: You know? And then you’re like, oh okay! I get it. I get why people do Patreons, and they make sense economically. But yeah, I just wanna say—I wanna second everything Caitlin said, and I also wanna say, don’t fact-check anything that was in this episode, so—

C: (laughs) 

K: Everything that we said was a hundred percent accurate, so … (laughs) about both the topic and about our patrons.

C: Right. Dakota Johnson actually loves limes.

K: She loves them! They do not make her tongue itch, as far as I know. (laughs) 

C: Well, as always, follow us on Instagram and Twitter at @TwoCentsPlusTax, and our website is TwoCentsPlusTaxPodcast.com, where our transcripts and show notes lie. Thank you for everyone who supported our Patreon so much!

K: I have one thing. So we want to in the future do a Q&A kind of thing—

C: Yes! Yes, yes.

K: —so, you know, if you have questions; anything you want us to answer; anything you wanna know about us—

C: Mm-hmm.

K: —either together or separately, or you just want us to answer, definitely Q that … no. Send that Q. (laughs) What was I trying to say? Send that Q to us, either on social media; at the places Caitlin just mentioned; on our email at TwoCentsPlusTaxPodcast@gmail.com. Get them to us however you can or want to, and we will answer them in a future episode.

C: Yeah! I really wanna do a FAQ episode. Or Q&A, or … other letters.

K: Qs and As are somewhere in the episode. (laughs) 

C: Right.

K: We’re gonna figure out how to do it. 

C: Well, any last thoughts for our IRS? Which if you follow this podcast, you know is the name of our fans? 

K: No. We appreciate you! That’s all I have to say.

C: We do! We love you. We love our fans. 

K: Yeah. They’re awesome.

C: Thank you. Alright. Well, until next time! I’m gonna say goodbye.

K: Bye!

(theme song plays)